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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 9, 2016 17:06:10 GMT -5
MIY strictly describes that the resources are primary information sources and not already pre-made RPG resources, the former being what was used/advocated to construct the historical foundation of RPG world/campaign creation (Blackmoor, Greyhawk, Kaiibruhn, my brother's Zothar and MAR Barker's Tekumel, et al). This would be for MIY Category #3, though since it is the premiere category for RPG campaign/world crafting (starts in 1971 with Blackmoor) I believe it should be category #1 So here I am and I want to design a MIY "RPG world/campaign creation". Where do I start? Or perhaps how do I start? How do I go back and start from the original sources, when I have already been exposed my whole life to the pre-made RPG resources?Where do I begin to make something unique?
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 9, 2016 17:44:18 GMT -5
MIY strictly describes that the resources are primary information sources and not already pre-made RPG resources, the former being what was used/advocated to construct the historical foundation of RPG world/campaign creation (Blackmoor, Greyhawk, Kaiibruhn, my brother's Zothar and MAR Barker's Tekumel, et al). This would be for MIY Category #3, though since it is the premiere category for RPG campaign/world crafting (starts in 1971 with Blackmoor) I believe it should be category #1 So here I am and I want to design a MIY "RPG world/campaign creation". Where do I start? Or perhaps how do I start? How do I go back and start from the original sources, when I have already been exposed my whole life to the pre-made RPG resources?Where do I begin to make something unique? Hello Darci. I'd like to make some broad suggestions but it's getting late here, in France, for me and to sleep I must go. Let me take this up on Monday as a very generalized approach.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 9, 2016 19:25:30 GMT -5
Thank you, that would be wonderful. I await your post.
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 10, 2016 11:11:32 GMT -5
Though I could suggest some specific approaches the difficulty with that is that uniqueness is specific to every person. Thus approaches will vary.
I am going to shotgun blast this for the most part and then, if warranted, followup if you have any need for clarification or to pose questions.
First one must decide on scope of the world in which you will insert your players into.
We can start TOP>DOWN, that is, with very general descriptions do overviews of the whole through definitive history of the world map locations, and then from there get more specific by way of what imaginatively is triggered through the repeated exercise. Lots of note taking involved in this and which produces a wide range of matter of different kinds and degrees.
From there you choose a point or points to concentrate on and this orders the relative interest level as a designer. This may also inspire cross generation of content, i.e., how the history or peoples of one place relate to others in the world.
This perforce requires a map, maybe not that detailed at first, but one that can be added to as the design progresses.
As for knowing something and unlearning it, I would not worry. The basic ilk of a designer is to “acknowledge” points of view so as to add these to one’s knowledge base for use, transforming the ideas, or sundering their bases. Thus knowing a lot of sources is a benefit for how not to do something or for manipulating the content in different ways.
For source material, that will vary as well. In my case I latched onto a good set of encyclopedias and read general articles on architecture, biology, myth,legend, folklore, et al, with the idea of attempting to find transformation points or use the material as inspiration for imaginative leaps while world crafting.
We can also start BOTTOM>UP (or mix the T>D and B>U) by doing something a little more traditional: city, immediate outdoor, dungeon(s) or other areas of note.
I started with one main area like this in my World of Kalibruhn even as I was advancing the idea of top>down creation through play. I started to make rumors of far away lands and myths and legends beyond the area, this as a foreshadowing of my design work and also for play hooks as the players would eventually seek these out.
I’ll stop here for now and maybe post some more in between the exchanges as they arise.
One thing I suggest is that you let the detail rise as your interest levels, or your players’ interest levels, rise. Otherwise start general with little information on each area and see where these head due to your own nature.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 10, 2016 12:01:20 GMT -5
Though I could suggest some specific approaches the difficulty with that is that uniqueness is specific to every person. Thus approaches will vary. I am going to shotgun blast this for the most part and then, if warranted, followup if you have any need for clarification or to pose questions. I hope that at some point you will expand on some of the specific approaches, as that will expand my view. Direction on deriving unique approaches would be excellent as well. First one must decide on scope of the world in which you will insert your players into. We can start TOP>DOWN, that is, with very general descriptions do overviews of the whole through definitive history of the world map locations, and then from there get more specific by way of what imaginatively is triggered through the repeated exercise. Lots of note taking involved in this and which produces a wide range of matter of different kinds and degrees. From there you choose a point or points to concentrate on and this orders the relative interest level as a designer. This may also inspire cross generation of content, i.e., how the history or peoples of one place relate to others in the world. This perforce requires a map, maybe not that detailed at first, but one that can be added to as the design progresses. As for knowing something and unlearning it, I would not worry. The basic ilk of a designer is to “acknowledge” points of view so as to add these to one’s knowledge base for use, transforming the ideas, or sundering their bases. Thus knowing a lot of sources is a benefit for how not to do something or for manipulating the content in different ways. For source material, that will vary as well. In my case I latched onto a good set of encyclopedias and read general articles on architecture, biology, myth,legend, folklore, et al, with the idea of attempting to find transformation points or use the material as inspiration for imaginative leaps while world crafting. We can also start BOTTOM>UP (or mix the T>D and B>U) by doing something a little more traditional: city, immediate outdoor, dungeon(s) or other areas of note. I started with one main area like this in my World of Kalibruhn even as I was advancing the idea of top>down creation through play. I started to make rumors of far away lands and myths and legends beyond the area, this as a foreshadowing of my design work and also for play hooks as the players would eventually seek these out. I have been lurking here for a few months and I have read through the Member Campaigns section and it seems to me that several of you are doing or did the mix of the T>D and of the B>U methods. I find this mix to be appealing because I like having an overview of my world and having a living history to my world. I also find it very appealing to have a main area where the game can start and from the reading in the Member Campaigns section it would indicate that the T>D mix would make it easier to move outward from the main area, because I have a general sense of what is there. I have access to the source materials you note between my own books and the library ( I love libraries ) and of course the web. I noted that our Admin provided some details of his world (continents, sizes and other details) and you also mentioned maps. As I have explored this forum, I found where the Admin posted a huge number of links to YouTube videos about how to draw maps. Do you have any tips on making a really interesting map? You also mentioned Would you post an example of this from your own world? This I found this to be very encouraging, I like the idea of transforming and sundering and turning things upside down.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 14:09:28 GMT -5
My personal take is first start by "What do you want the world, generally speaking, to look like?" What are your favorite literary sources, what are the historical eras and motifs that inspire you? In short, what is the world FOR? What do you think will be interesting about it? What kind of things do you envision players doing in it?
As an example, after 44 years I've gone back to Robert E. Howard's "Hyborian Age." Not specifically because I expect players to have Conan-type adventures, but rather because of the same reason Howard created that world and Tony Bath used it for many years for his wargame campaign: It contains a huge variety of elements that can make for imaginative play, and you can have cultures in there from neolithic to Bronze Age Greek to Pharaonic Egypt to Anglo Saxon Jutland to High Middle Ages France and England. But it's huge enough that there's a lot of space Howard never filled in. It also lacks a "grand central theme" like Middle Earth, so it's very amenable to letting the players do whatever they want.
After forty years of trying to come up with a world that contained all that but wasn't the Hyborian Age, at age 60 I simply said "Screw it I'm getting old," and decided to keep on using Howard's world.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 10, 2016 16:31:59 GMT -5
As an example, after 44 years I've gone back to Robert E. Howard's "Hyborian Age." Not specifically because I expect players to have Conan-type adventures, but rather because of the same reason Howard created that world and Tony Bath used it for many years for his wargame campaign: It contains a huge variety of elements that can make for imaginative play, and you can have cultures in there from neolithic to Bronze Age Greek to Pharaonic Egypt to Anglo Saxon Jutland to High Middle Ages France and England. But it's huge enough that there's a lot of space Howard never filled in. It also lacks a "grand central theme" like Middle Earth, so it's very amenable to letting the players do whatever they want. After forty years of trying to come up with a world that contained all that but wasn't the Hyborian Age, at age 60 I simply said "Screw it I'm getting old," and decided to keep on using Howard's world. Likely good advice, but I want to spend my forty years coming up with my own world before I decide to take it!
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 10, 2016 17:08:29 GMT -5
Though I could suggest some specific approaches the difficulty with that is that uniqueness is specific to every person. Thus approaches will vary. I am going to shotgun blast this for the most part and then, if warranted, followup if you have any need for clarification or to pose questions. I hope that at some point you will expand on some of the specific approaches, as that will expand my view. Direction on deriving unique approaches would be excellent as well. First one must decide on scope of the world in which you will insert your players into. We can start TOP>DOWN, that is, with very general descriptions do overviews of the whole through definitive history of the world map locations, and then from there get more specific by way of what imaginatively is triggered through the repeated exercise. Lots of note taking involved in this and which produces a wide range of matter of different kinds and degrees. From there you choose a point or points to concentrate on and this orders the relative interest level as a designer. This may also inspire cross generation of content, i.e., how the history or peoples of one place relate to others in the world. This perforce requires a map, maybe not that detailed at first, but one that can be added to as the design progresses. As for knowing something and unlearning it, I would not worry. The basic ilk of a designer is to “acknowledge” points of view so as to add these to one’s knowledge base for use, transforming the ideas, or sundering their bases. Thus knowing a lot of sources is a benefit for how not to do something or for manipulating the content in different ways. For source material, that will vary as well. In my case I latched onto a good set of encyclopedias and read general articles on architecture, biology, myth,legend, folklore, et al, with the idea of attempting to find transformation points or use the material as inspiration for imaginative leaps while world crafting. We can also start BOTTOM>UP (or mix the T>D and B>U) by doing something a little more traditional: city, immediate outdoor, dungeon(s) or other areas of note. I started with one main area like this in my World of Kalibruhn even as I was advancing the idea of top>down creation through play. I started to make rumors of far away lands and myths and legends beyond the area, this as a foreshadowing of my design work and also for play hooks as the players would eventually seek these out. I have been lurking here for a few months and I have read through the Member Campaigns section and it seems to me that several of you are doing or did the mix of the T>D and of the B>U methods. I find this mix to be appealing because I like having an overview of my world and having a living history to my world. I also find it very appealing to have a main area where the game can start and from the reading in the Member Campaigns section it would indicate that the T>D mix would make it easier to move outward from the main area, because I have a general sense of what is there. I have access to the source materials you note between my own books and the library ( I love libraries ) and of course the web. I noted that our Admin provided some details of his world (continents, sizes and other details) and you also mentioned maps. As I have explored this forum, I found where the Admin posted a huge number of links to YouTube videos about how to draw maps. Do you have any tips on making a really interesting map? You also mentioned Would you post an example of this from your own world? This I found this to be very encouraging, I like the idea of transforming and sundering and turning things upside down. Great! It is getting late for me here (again) so I will progress upon your follow ups and requested examples sometime in the next two days.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 10, 2016 18:53:12 GMT -5
My personal take is first start by "What do you want the world, generally speaking, to look like?" What are your favorite literary sources, what are the historical eras and motifs that inspire you? In short, what is the world FOR? What do you think will be interesting about it? What kind of things do you envision players doing in it? I will be thinking about these things and composing my thoughts about them.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 10, 2016 18:54:28 GMT -5
Great! It is getting late for me here (again) so I will progress upon your follow ups and requested examples sometime in the next two days. Excellent, I will look forward to it as I think about what you and @gronanofsimmerya have already said.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Oct 10, 2016 20:56:32 GMT -5
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 11, 2016 7:12:58 GMT -5
Ooh! Another gentleman! You are very welcome, kind sir! Do you have any advice on this topic?
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Oct 11, 2016 11:24:46 GMT -5
Ooh! Another gentleman! You are very welcome, kind sir! Do you have any advice on this topic? My best advice is this - start with a map of your world. Figure out in your mind what you want the world to look like and then draw it. Make some notes about some of the different physical features of your world and any ideas that spring to mind. Right now you are just brainstorming and anything can be revised. If you can draw - great! If you can't draw - well give it your best shot. You can usually get someone to redraw it later on. Decide on how big your world is and all the other macro details in general form. My world is the size of Jupiter so the surface area is huge. Your options are unlimited so you can tailor things to what grabs you and fascinates you (if you have players or prospective players pick their brains about what excites them and take note of where you and they overlap.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 12, 2016 13:59:39 GMT -5
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 12, 2016 14:13:26 GMT -5
Hey Darci. I have not forgotten you but work has slowed what would be a lengthy response. I have part of what I want to post but will probably post tomorrow, just to let you know.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 12, 2016 14:44:28 GMT -5
Hey Darci. I have not forgotten you but work has slowed what would be a lengthy response. I have part of what I want to post but will probably post tomorrow, just to let you know. It is OK, I am not in a hurry, I have plenty to work on while it comes together. I have been thinking about some things about the world and I will be posting those thoughts in the next few days.
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Post by hengest on Oct 14, 2016 14:01:22 GMT -5
I am hardly Mr. Experience on this board, but for what it's worth, I say rev up your unconscious mind to get started. -Make some light pencil lines on a blank sheet of paper. Something mildly pleasing. Then interpret them. Repeat as you wish. -Use tetramorph 's cartomancy idea. Don't even adapt it. Use as written and interpret. Roll an NPC, decide that this person will be central to not the campaign, but to one spot. One dwelling, even. Draw cards. Go. -Regular meditation practice can help to let a lot of stuff blossom in your mind. -Don't bind yourself in advance to ( insert your favorite type of setting here). The process will create a bunch of stuff you never use directly. For example: a woman on a tiny island in the middle of a lake, some days she isn't there. What good is that? When you think of something like that, see where it takes you. -Check out scottanderson's post here on place-names.
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 14, 2016 16:42:01 GMT -5
Hey Darci. I have not forgotten you but work has slowed what would be a lengthy response. I have part of what I want to post but will probably post tomorrow, just to let you know. It is OK, I am not in a hurry, I have plenty to work on while it comes together. I have been thinking about some things about the world and I will be posting those thoughts in the next few days. I'm really not good at suggesting individualized slants so I will stay general. About the map, I'd start with a concept map first (unless you have already worked past that stage). Just a blank sheet with major location names spread about in a circle or square in the general pattern/distance that they would later be re-rendered. As I said, concept map. This gives you some relationships that can then be furthered through note taking and a start at realizing the final rendering of the map. Always remember that maps are merely narrative. They have no special meaning and thus no process for building them without the contextual relations, the "elements," that make up that narrative. This perforce requires some history and a continued painting of the canvas to create and sustain that narrative. See hereafter a quote on design that I use in my upcoming book on Arneson. I will address your other request for a sample as time and the muse permits. “Making complex designs that are implemented over a long period of time and continually modified in the course of implementation has much in common with painting in oil. In oil painting every new spot of pigment laid on the canvas creates some kind of pattern that provides a continuing source of new ideas to the painter. The painting process is a process of cyclical interaction between painter and canvas in which current goals lead to new applications of paint, while the gradually changing pattern suggests new goals." Herbert Simon, The Sciences of the Artificial.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 14, 2016 22:18:36 GMT -5
It is OK, I am not in a hurry, I have plenty to work on while it comes together. I have been thinking about some things about the world and I will be posting those thoughts in the next few days. I'm really not good at suggesting individualized slants so I will stay general. About the map, I'd start with a concept map first (unless you have already worked past that stage). Just a blank sheet with major location names spread about in a circle or square in the general pattern/distance that they would later be re-rendered. As I said, concept map. This gives you some relationships that can then be furthered through note taking and a start at realizing the final rendering of the map. Always remember that maps are merely narrative. They have no special meaning and thus no process for building them without the contextual relations, the "elements," that make up that narrative. This perforce requires some history and a continued painting of the canvas to create and sustain that narrative. See hereafter a quote on design that I use in my upcoming book on Arneson. I will address your other request for a sample as time and the muse permits. “Making complex designs that are implemented over a long period of time and continually modified in the course of implementation has much in common with painting in oil. In oil painting every new spot of pigment laid on the canvas creates some kind of pattern that provides a continuing source of new ideas to the painter. The painting process is a process of cyclical interaction between painter and canvas in which current goals lead to new applications of paint, while the gradually changing pattern suggests new goals." Herbert Simon, The Sciences of the Artificial.I have not started the map yet, so I will work on a concept map and go from there! I like the analogy to an oil painting. Lots of nuance!
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 16, 2016 7:55:13 GMT -5
I moved @gronanofsimmerya post about how to use existing maps to here and used it to start a new thread in the DIY forum, as it is about using existing resources.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 17, 2016 23:05:07 GMT -5
I am making some progress and hope to post something by the end of the week.
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Post by hengest on Oct 20, 2016 16:01:15 GMT -5
So here I am and I want to design a MIY "RPG world/campaign creation". Where do I start? Or perhaps how do I start? How do I go back and start from the original sources, when I have already been exposed my whole life to the pre-made RPG resources?Where do I begin to make something unique? Not that you need this, Mighty Darci , since you are already at work, but just for undying fame on this thread -- I love Tolkien, but certain aspects of Tolkien are already very well-represented and well-known in RPGs. Go to folktales. Go to English folktales instead of the more familiar German ones. Or go outside of Europe. Or check this out. I would never have thought of something like this if I lived for 200 years. Posted only as an example of how going back to "the sources" can shake things up.
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 20, 2016 16:08:57 GMT -5
So here I am and I want to design a MIY "RPG world/campaign creation". Where do I start? Or perhaps how do I start? How do I go back and start from the original sources, when I have already been exposed my whole life to the pre-made RPG resources?Where do I begin to make something unique? Not that you need this, Mighty Darci , since you are already at work, but just for undying fame on this thread -- I love Tolkien, but certain aspects of Tolkien are already very well-represented and well-known in RPGs. Go to folktales. Go to English folktales instead of the more familiar German ones. Or go outside of Europe. Or check this out. I would never have thought of something like this if I lived for 200 years. Posted only as an example of how going back to "the sources" can shake things up. Another person familiar with Bateson! I have read many of his papers on Systems Theory. He mastered many disciplines in his life.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2016 23:37:35 GMT -5
Likely good advice, but I want to spend my forty years coming up with my own world before I decide to take it! Another thought on this issue has occurred to me. Besides "what do you want your world to look like," consider also, "what is your world FOR." For instance, Dave Arneson thought up a game, and then made a place for it called "Blackmoor." On the other hand, Phil Barker created a world called "Tekumel" and then decades later wrote a game for it. Either answer is perfectly fine, but you may find yourself going in different directions depending on whether you consider it first and foremost to be a creative exercise in world building, or building a playground for a game to happen in. There is a rule in OD&D that monsters can see in the dark, but they lose the ability to do so if they are hired by players. That makes no dang sense at all as a way that a fictional world works, but it's perfectly viable as a rule for a game. I'm much more in the "This is a playground for a game" camp, but that's just one old grognard's opinion. Anyway, think about which you want, or if you want a blend, and blended in what proportion.
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 22, 2016 2:57:57 GMT -5
Likely good advice, but I want to spend my forty years coming up with my own world before I decide to take it! Another thought on this issue has occurred to me. Besides "what do you want your world to look like," consider also, "what is your world FOR." For instance, Dave Arneson thought up a game, and then made a place for it called "Blackmoor." On the other hand, Phil Barker created a world called "Tekumel" and then decades later wrote a game for it. Either answer is perfectly fine, but you may find yourself going in different directions depending on whether you consider it first and foremost to be a creative exercise in world building, or building a playground for a game to happen in. There is a rule in OD&D that monsters can see in the dark, but they lose the ability to do so if they are hired by players. That makes no dang sense at all as a way that a fictional world works, but it's perfectly viable as a rule for a game. I'm much more in the "This is a playground for a game" camp, but that's just one old grognard's opinion. Anyway, think about which you want, or if you want a blend, and blended in what proportion. You mean what I already tersely summarized above? "From there you choose a point or points to concentrate on and this orders the relative interest level as a designer. This may also inspire cross generation of content, i.e., how the history or peoples of one place relate to others in the world."
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Post by robertsconley on Oct 24, 2016 10:42:12 GMT -5
MIY strictly describes that the resources are primary information sources and not already pre-made RPG resources, the former being what was used/advocated to construct the historical foundation of RPG world/campaign creation (Blackmoor, Greyhawk, Kaiibruhn, my brother's Zothar and MAR Barker's Tekumel, et al). This would be for MIY Category #3, though since it is the premiere category for RPG campaign/world crafting (starts in 1971 with Blackmoor) I believe it should be category #1 So here I am and I want to design a MIY "RPG world/campaign creation". Where do I start? Or perhaps how do I start? How do I go back and start from the original sources, when I have already been exposed my whole life to the pre-made RPG resources?Where do I begin to make something unique? I suggest start off by reading Susan Bauer's three History of X Worlds starting with the Ancient World then Medieval World and then Renaissance World. She doesn't go into the Nth level of detail in any particular area but she includes enough that you learn something and know enough to look for the additional detail. Just as important she is brilliant in how she breaks up the timeline of various regions. At first it looks like she flits from region to region but as you read on you being to see how it all connected. Next read the seminal books of you chosen subgenre. For example Game of Thrones vs. Lord of the Rings vs. The Hour of the Dragon (Conan) vs. Prachett's Discword. All fantasy all very different from each other. The most important thing to learn from both readings is gaining an understanding of how people and things act within the world. For example reading how the different dynasties of China handled cultures beyond their frontier was interesting. I couldn' t recite the exact details without looking it up but I got a better sense of the possibilities which will help me later if I want to incorporate a similar situation into a campaign. Finally use my How to Make a Fantasy Sandbox to take what you learned and use it to organize it a way that useful to run a tabletop campaign. There are other ways that work of organizing stuff to start a campaign with. Some are very simple and some elaborate. What important is that you decide how you are going to organize your stuff, make a list, start at the top and work you way down. If it just a town and dungeon that often works. My method is for when you want to go all in on the world building.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 24, 2016 13:02:03 GMT -5
Looks like some good thought provoking stuff here.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 29, 2016 22:47:00 GMT -5
Here are some names that I have been writing down and I wanted to share them with you for feedback. These are preliminary, because I am going to be changing monsters names and making my own versions or things completely new. These are kind of placeholder ideas.
Zombie Gulch
The Ravine of the Lost
River of the Dead
Vampire Mountain
The Troll Woods
The Ogre Grotto
Kingdom of the Black Dwarves (black as in dour/moody)
Dark Forest of the Fey (Chaotic Neutral Elves)
The Lighted Lands (Chaotic Good Elves)
Merchant Mountain (home of the Gnomes - Laws and Contracts)
Kingdom of the Timid (the name humans give it)
The Ruins of the Grave Knights
Dragon's Curse
Lost Orc Canyon
Minotaur's Revenge
The Plains of the Golden Horse
Lost Dragon Swamp
The Were Dragon's Curse
Tiger! Tiger!
The Golem Kingdom
Dunes of Despair
The River of the Green Men
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 30, 2016 0:54:18 GMT -5
Here are some names that I have been writing down and I wanted to share them with you for feedback. These are preliminary, because I am going to be changing monsters names and making my own versions or things completely new. These are kind of placeholder ideas. Zombie Gulch The Ravine of the Lost River of the Dead Vampire Mountain The Troll Woods The Ogre Grotto Kingdom of the Black Dwarves (black as in dour/moody) Dark Forest of the Fey (Chaotic Neutral Elves) The Lighted Lands (Chaotic Good Elves) Merchant Mountain (home of the Gnomes - Laws and Contracts) Kingdom of the Timid (the name humans give it) The Ruins of the Grave Knights Dragon's Curse Lost Orc Canyon Minotaur's Revenge The Plains of the Golden Horse Lost Dragon Swamp The Were Dragon's Curse Tiger! Tiger! The Golem Kingdom Dunes of Despair The River of the Green Men A nice list, out of all of these the following caught my own imagination/interest: The Plains of the Golden HorseDunes of DespairThe Ravine of the LostI'll explain why if you want.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Oct 30, 2016 2:10:36 GMT -5
"Zombie Gulch" instantly brings images of "Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter." This is not necessarily a bad thing.
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