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Post by smubee on Jun 15, 2016 0:45:58 GMT -5
The modern perception of Elves is something more akin to this :  But, am I misunderstanding the drawing from the OD&D 3LBB? To me it looks more like a Gnome, or even one of Santa's Elves opposed to what we think of nowadays.  But then the next time we see an Elf in the AD&D PHB, they look much more like what our modern perceptions are of the species  So when did this change? I'd love to hear some input from anyone. |
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Post by hengest on Jun 15, 2016 8:32:58 GMT -5
I am so far from expert on the history of this game, I shouldn't even be on this thread. But here's my thought.
The game (where "game" = "most commercially successful and widely played edition") has changed from a fairly light set of rules for DIY (including "think of it yourself" and "imagine it yourself") exploration adventures to a much more pre-thought, pre-imagined system for running combat.
In this latter system, "elf" doesn't cut it anymore. "Imagine someone, maybe like a gnomeish thing or not human but not short like a dwarf, take what you know and imagine from stories, Tolkien, elsewhere, and have your idea of 'elf'" won't fly. They need to be bulked-out super-wizards to even have a passing hold on the imagination.
A slightly different take is that because of cultural shifts, many of which have to do with imagination, publishers now feel like they have to print a picture of what you might have imagined then.
Not exactly relevant, but sort of:
Now they draw elves (and others) to represent what was on the other side back in the dawn of the hobby. To my taste, it's way too much interpretation, and I must prefer the less professional "here's a drawing" style of the earlier books and even some of the AD&D stuff.
Looking forward to hearing from others on this one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2016 18:27:09 GMT -5
Gary got that picture from Greg Bell untitled. He decided it was an elf, probably because he needed a picture of an elf. Be careful you don't read in too much.
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Post by smubee on Jun 16, 2016 0:21:48 GMT -5
Gary got that picture from Greg Bell untitled. He decided it was an elf, probably because he needed a picture of an elf. Be careful you don't read in too much. I was just curious as to what the general perception of Elves was at the time. When I ran the game for a bunch of young relatives of mine those that played an Elf thought that it was more like Santa's Elves.. So was just curious as to whether or not this was the original concept of one, or if it was more like a Tolkien Elf. |
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Post by hengest on Jun 16, 2016 8:23:51 GMT -5
My guess is "significantly more like Tolkien's elves" than any elf of Santa's.
All this is written in / suggested in LOTR, with the "fading" and "diminishment" of the Elves who remain in Middle-Earth. Again, sort of relevant.
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Post by Stormcrow on Jun 16, 2016 9:35:51 GMT -5
"Elves" come from many traditions, and aren't identical in them. The most common sort of elves known in the Western world, the diminutive fairies fluttering about flowers, is largely a result of Victorian-era artists. In the Middle Ages English elves were human-sized, mysterious, and dangerous. As art and literature developed, they became smaller and more comical.
The idea of human-sized and not-so-cute elves came back largely because of Tolkien. Early on he wanted to explain why elves shrank in art and literature, so he said that elves were fading. He later abandoned this idea and began to detest Victorian pixie-elves. His fading elves actually become harder to see, rather than smaller, and they leave the world rather than hide in mounds.
Because of Tolkien, D&D picked up on the idea of manlike elves. From there it spread to the general population. Tolkien's elves (mostly) have no beards, so we don't tend to imagine beards on elves today. But outside of Tolkien's influence, there is no such restriction that I'm aware of.
In the early days of D&D, the idea of beardless elves hadn't yet saturated the culture, so you get the occasional bearded elf.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2016 9:38:31 GMT -5
Gary got that picture from Greg Bell untitled. He decided it was an elf, probably because he needed a picture of an elf. Be careful you don't read in too much. I was just curious as to what the general perception of Elves was at the time. When I ran the game for a bunch of young relatives of mine those that played an Elf thought that it was more like Santa's Elves.. So was just curious as to whether or not this was the original concept of one, or if it was more like a Tolkien Elf. Well, we'd all read both Lord of the Rings and The Broken Sword, so that's two very different pictures of elves. And nobody I know payed any real attention to the pictures in the original booklets. That picture isn't "the original concept" of a blamed thing. It's a filler illo that Gary stuck the word "elf" onto. It means absolutely nothing more than that. |
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Post by doctorx on Jun 20, 2016 16:52:02 GMT -5
For me this is one of the real joys of the LBBs and the reason I keep coming back to them. You have a name, some stats, perhaps a vague idea of abilities/tactics, whathaveyou - but beyond that it's left to you as the DM to work out exactly what an Elf/Orc/Gnoll whatever actually is, why it is, and why it does what it does (whatever that may be - again, down to you to decide).
Result: in an ideal campaign everyone's Elf/Orc/Gnoll is different, and that's what makes the game fun - you don't know what you're encountering.
I don't know what or how the Elf in that LBB picture works or thinks, but it would be great fun trying to work it out...  |
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Post by The Red Baron on Jun 25, 2016 19:17:54 GMT -5
In Arneson's game, elves were the only ones with guns. (Besides the occasional time traveling nazis and space aliens)
In his AIF, he describes elves who love only song and war, and are unable to use magic in sunlight.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Apr 16, 2018 18:59:46 GMT -5
Because I came late to OD&D I was far more influenced by 3.5/Forgotten Realms Elves but ultimately my elves are inspired by Poison Elves by Drew Hayes (RIP) & Elflord by Barry Blair (also RIP) comics. I grew up on Elflord & the works by Barry Blair and Aicel Comics; plus my adult life was dominated by comics like Poison Elves & fairly recently Rat Queens (though I only care for the first two GNs).   Poison Elves ElflordI think elves can look like however you desire them to be. In my setting they can have beards & look more like Poison Elves' Elves. See the following pic:  The D’Jōlî The D’Jōlî are an Elf-like race - they used to be Elfin but were cut off from their connection to the Fey Wilds & their patron Deity was slain in a God War (whose skull is used as a relic to commune with his spirit in the underworld in order to learn magical secrets from him by the Sorcerers of Šorim. The D’Jōlî hate the Šorimītes for this sacrilege.). |
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on Apr 25, 2020 18:30:56 GMT -5
I've been told people don't bother much about necro-posting on these boards, so I'll toss my two cents in the arena, for what they're worth. I know Gygax wasn't a huge Tolkien fan, but he did include Tolkien elements in his game by popular demand, and I understand that Tolkien was so pervasive in the sci fi and fantasy fandoms at the time that when people did a fantasy miniatures game they often called it "playing Tolkien" rather than "playing fantasy". At least, that's what Peterson's book leads me to believe based on written statements of people in wargaming at the time. I'm sure it could have been a regional thing. One could make an argument in favor of Chainmail elves strongly resembling the Tolkien elves for this reason, and that carrying over into D&D through osmosis. Granted, not everything in D&D was Tolkien derived, as is evidenced by Poul Anderson's troll being the standard D&D troll and not Tolkien's troll that turns to stone when sunlight hits it. So I guess you could go either way, but since the fantasy races Gary put into Men & Magic are the three fantasy races of Tolkien, I'm gonna assume most players would visualize Legolas or Elrond types.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 26, 2020 0:09:53 GMT -5
Gary got that picture from Greg Bell untitled. He decided it was an elf, probably because he needed a picture of an elf. Be careful you don't read in too much. I was just curious as to what the general perception of Elves was at the time. When I ran the game for a bunch of young relatives of mine those that played an Elf thought that it was more like Santa's Elves.. So was just curious as to whether or not this was the original concept of one, or if it was more like a Tolkien Elf. I always thought of Elves like the Greg Bell picture sans the beard. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 26, 2020 0:18:13 GMT -5
I've been told people don't bother much about necro-posting on these boards, so I'll toss my two cents in the arena, for what they're worth. I know Gygax wasn't a huge Tolkien fan, but he did include Tolkien elements in his game by popular demand, and I understand that Tolkien was so pervasive in the sci fi and fantasy fandoms at the time that when people did a fantasy miniatures game they often called it "playing Tolkien" rather than "playing fantasy". At least, that's what Peterson's book leads me to believe based on written statements of people in wargaming at the time. I'm sure it could have been a regional thing. One could make an argument in favor of Chainmail elves strongly resembling the Tolkien elves for this reason, and that carrying over into D&D through osmosis. Granted, not everything in D&D was Tolkien derived, as is evidenced by Poul Anderson's troll being the standard D&D troll and not Tolkien's troll that turns to stone when sunlight hits it. So I guess you could go either way, but since the fantasy races Gary put into Men & Magic are the three fantasy races of Tolkien, I'm gonna assume most players would visualize Legolas or Elrond types. Yeah, necro-posting is fine on these boards (now even I would not necro 10 threads in a day, but a couple at a time is fine). Funny that you bring up that point. I had read The Hobbit and the LotR Trilogy twice each before I got into D&D in 1975. But oddly enough, D&D - even with Hobbits, Ents and Balrogs never made me think of Tolkien. It always made me think of Burroughs and Howard. |
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on Apr 26, 2020 6:50:59 GMT -5
Yeah, and he even mentions Burroughs and Howard specifically in the intro to booklet 1, but a lot of the Tolkien elements were carried over from Chainmail and kind of mish mashed into the more pulp elements more prevalent in OD&D. It became a sort of kitchen sink setting as a result, as detailed in the "original OD&D setting" pamphlet. It would be easier for me personally to envision Elves from non Tolkien media if they were presented alongside, say, swanmays and knobs or something but they appear alongside Dwarves and Hobbits, and the inclusion of those two specifically makes my brain automatically envision the Elves of Mirkwood or Lothlorien. The illustration in the booklet doesn't support that but I've heard the pictures were labeled semi-randomly and we shouldn't read too much into them.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Apr 28, 2020 22:55:30 GMT -5
After much drama on Twitter this weekend around how Orcs are racist stand ins for Blacks & “All White D&D fans believe POCs are Orcs, Goblins etc”. I got to thinking about the Tolkien races in my campaigns going forward.
I will focus on Elves since they are the topic of the thread:
In the current setting that I am developing organically as I also develop my House Ruled OD&D system - Elves are broken into two categories:
• True Elves - Which are Neutral to Chaotic Fey who are ageless alien magical beings. They delight in making mischief & abducting humans to experiment on with their primal Fey Magic. NPC ONLY.
• Low Elves or Half-Elves - They are humans who were often abducted by the Fey and over the years magically altered physically to appeal to the Fey’s alien Sensibilities. They were often taught magic and limited Warcraft.
I wanted to get away from the bog standard Tolkien Elves. Though I love Elves I detested the idea of ageless beings going on adventures with humans. This allows Elves but with a twist I like.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 28, 2020 23:53:32 GMT -5
After much drama on Twitter this weekend around how Orcs are racist stand ins for Blacks & “All White D&D fans believe POCs are Orcs, Goblins etc”. I did not read any of that, those people are best ignored IMO. I got to thinking about the Tolkien races in my campaigns going forward. I will focus on Elves since they are the topic of the thread: In the current setting that I am developing organically as I also develop my House Ruled OD&D system - Elves are broken into two categories: • True Elves - Which are Neutral to Chaotic Fey who are ageless alien magical beings. They delight in making mischief & abducting humans to experiment on with their primal Fey Magic. NPC ONLY. • Low Elves or Half-Elves - They are humans who were often abducted by the Fey and over the years magically altered physically to appeal to the Fey’s alien Sensibilities. They were often taught magic and limited Warcraft. I wanted to get away from the bog standard Tolkien Elves. Though I love Elves I detested the idea of ageless beings going on adventures with humans. This allows Elves but with a twist I like. Sounds good, looking forward to you writing all of this up. |
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Post by mao on Apr 29, 2020 7:00:01 GMT -5
For 40 years of gaming I most of the time had no elves(NPC only) LOL I would let you be a sword but not an elf< LOL
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 29, 2020 8:31:13 GMT -5
For 40 years of gaming I most of the time had no elves(NPC only) LOL I would let you be a sword but not an elf< LOL Why did you not like elves? |
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Post by mao on Apr 29, 2020 9:08:49 GMT -5
For 40 years of gaming I most of the time had no elves(NPC only) LOL I would let you be a sword but not an elf< LOL Why did you not like elves? I really can't say but I figure by the time I entered into my 3-or 4 year, I was tired of all the stock races |
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Post by ampleframework on Apr 29, 2020 10:00:31 GMT -5
I've read quite a bit of Tolkien, and the actual African analogues of his setting are called Haradrim. Some are good, some are evil, like any other Men. Tolkien even left the door open for good or at least neutral Orcs. I have to wonder if some of these modern Tolkien critics have even read his books or notes.
Anyway, on the the topic of Elves, Gary's conception of demi-humans somewhat matches the tone taken by Tolkien and other Appendix N authors - they represent something older and less flexible than the races of Man, who are young, dynamic and prone to adventure. That was the justification for the level and class limitations for, say, Dwarves. Their culture is dying and it was never as flexible as that of Men, but as Specialists they're very good at what they do, which is mining and living underground.
I'm personally fine with the demi-humans as presented and prefer to run OD&D by the original three booklets as-written. I understand the arguments for and against them but from a purely mechanical POV they all serve a purpose in the adventuring party. A game without Elves would need to be balanced by magic-users who specialize in finding things, for instance, because that's the Elven niche.
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Post by hengest on Apr 11, 2021 20:06:23 GMT -5
It seems "broken" (but who cares), but I can see adapting Tolkien's effectively immortal elves to be usable NPCs or even PCs.
1) They can be killed in combat anyway, which is how most PCs die, so big deal that they're immortal.
2) An immortal (or nearly immortal) ruler (like Elros in Numenor) could give some historical stability to a setting / culture.
3) They are naturally not so inclined to "adventure," so maybe a game limit, like only one in 15 PCs can be an elf. Something like that. Or roll race at random, and elf only comes up every so often.
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