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Post by captaincrumbcake on Jun 7, 2016 1:54:27 GMT -5
If we are to take the term, Axiom, at its second meaning: an established principle or law of a science, art, etc. , then--I submit--the plot/scenario of a created adventure is as much deserving to be discussed within the context of this folder (Campaign Workshop) as any other component someone designs-creates for the game played; be it a new spell, character class, magic item, or monster.
I so strongly believe this that I think this idea (thread) might actually deserve to be stickied! But we'll see.
For now, if any member has an idea-plot-hook or full scenario they think might make an interesting adventure, please toss it here. I'll start, with one that just came to me this evening.
What if, instead of all the dragons being extinct as so many generations have thought/been told, that one--just one--managed to escape the genocide-war waged against dragonkind those 100s of years ago? Even worse, what if it turned out that the dragon had been a fully adult female, having been fully impregnated during the very last mating season of their kind? And what if, lo and behold, this had all been foreseen by sages and mystics of old, and written down--only to have their warnings become lost, and forgotten by the races of men, dwarfs, elves, and so on? And...
(Note: My computer may be down for a couple of days or so. We'll see how it goes.)
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 7, 2016 6:31:20 GMT -5
Such plot hooks would be very generic on one end or very specific to individual campaigns and specified world content on another. I have always assumed that generic takes on specific world matter is rather a contradictory mode of design thinking. Or are you (once again) assuming that every different campaign functions under such generic manipulation of content? Once again, my fellow, your assumptive stance (campaign worlds as generalizations) begs a question from myself based upon worlds not being generalizations but specifically wrought creations of an individual designer's intent.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 7, 2016 7:30:53 GMT -5
I am not sure which was intended, whether the very generic on one end or the very specific to individual campaigns and specified world content. However, I think that sharing of the latter would be instructive, inspiring and quite interesting. In the member campaigns section is where I was hoping that such things would be shared as people tell us about their individual campaigns. I am assuming that the main reason that has not happened much is that most people are in the same boat I am and just have limited time to do this. captaincrumbcake if you have a campaign world, why don't you let me know and then you will have your own place to post these things and perhaps inspire more of us to get busy and do the same. I am not so interested in the generic but seeing what someone did and what their players did with it would be very interesting. |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 7, 2016 7:48:11 GMT -5
I am not sure which was intended, whether the very generic on one end or the very specific to individual campaigns and specified world content. However, I think that sharing of the latter would be instructive, inspiring and quite interesting. In the member campaigns section is where I was hoping that such things would be shared as people tell us about their individual campaigns. I am assuming that the main reason that has not happened much is that most people are in the same boat I am and just have limited time to do this. captaincrumbcake if you have a campaign world, why don't you let me know and then you will have your own place to post these things and perhaps inspire more of us to get busy and do the same. I am not so interested in the generic but seeing what someone did and what their players did with it would be very interesting. I am not interested in posting hooks which would necessarily have to be generic. Why? Because the specific ones relate to my world and are incumbent upon unique play and DMing styles, on invested time of me and my players, on different and far-ranging inclinations, POVs, etc, that have no bearing on any other world POVs occurring elsewhere. And extracting these for simple comparative viewing would make no sense except in a general way; and I am not about to excise them to fit them into a generic/watered-down version of same. I feel that, at best, what CCC is suggesting can only be generic; and I reject that course, as well. This philosophically leaves me, or perhaps others so individually inclined, to their own devices because we have individual campaigns and unique ways, each of us, of relaying content into a living world. There are just some things that belong to the specific world and the creative individual only, and this is one of them, IMO. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 7, 2016 8:57:40 GMT -5
I am not interested in posting hooks which would necessarily have to be generic. Why? Because the specific ones relate to my world and are incumbent upon unique play and DMing styles, on invested time of me and my players, on different and far-ranging inclinations, POVs, etc, that have no bearing on any other world POVs occurring elsewhere. And extracting these for simple comparative viewing would make no sense except in a general way; and I am not about to excise them to fit them into a generic/watered-down version of same. I feel that, at best, what CCC is suggesting can only be generic; and I reject that course, as well. This philosophically leaves me, or perhaps others so individually inclined, to their own devices because we have individual campaigns and unique ways, each of us, of relaying content into a living world. There are just some things that belong to the specific world and the creative individual only, and this is one of them, IMO. I am not sure we are on the same page, I was referring to people sharing stories from their campaigns. Is that what you understood me to be saying or something else? If you share a story of something that happened in your campaign that would, of course, contain both the hook and what the players did with it. Are you saying that you are opposed to sharing interesting stories from your campaign? Because that is what I am talking about. |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 7, 2016 10:29:21 GMT -5
Of course I understood, but CCC said: "For now, if any member has an idea-plot-hook or full scenario they think might make an interesting adventure, please toss it here. " He is sourcing adventure material, not necessarily related to ongoing Campaigns, either. I find the whole thing rather strange from all angles. I am not here to provide people, and neither are they here to provide me, with adventures and "full scenarios". I find the concept bizarre. If we want to turn it into stories, okay then, but that is not what was originally requested.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 7, 2016 11:06:41 GMT -5
Of course I understood, but CCC said: "For now, if any member has an idea-plot-hook or full scenario they think might make an interesting adventure, please toss it here. " He is sourcing adventure material, not necessarily related to ongoing Campaigns, either. I find the whole thing rather strange from all angles. I am not here to provide people, and neither are they here to provide me, with adventures and "full scenarios". I find the concept bizarre. If we want to turn it into stories, okay then, but that is not what was originally requested. That is clear then. I thought you were responding to my post, not what was originally requested. I agree with, I was just stating that I was intending/hoping the member campaign section would or could include campaign stories, that would be fun to read (which would contain the ideas that CCC is looking for, but in a different context). I was trying to provide a bridge between this post and an existing area of the forums in the context of all forum viewers/users. On the other hand, I am not opposed to anyone who wants to contribute hook ideas to this thread. |
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Post by captaincrumbcake on Jun 7, 2016 11:29:02 GMT -5
(sad sigh) Here I go...again. Posting in my, usual, annoying-puzzling-difficult to translate, verbiage about something that is, basically, a simple concept: this is a workshop thread, as I understand it. A place where folks can post ideas, snippets/fragments/fully-developed components of things they may or may not intend to actually utilize; but wish to show off their result. Or did I get this wrong? Generic? Specific? Is an underwater ranger necessarily one or the other? a spell that changes giants to butterflies? a backpack that magically transforms into a circus tent? etc. Yes, I suppose each of those could be one, or the other , or both. But who cares? I started the thread, simply, to see if members would be willing, or want, to post some of their adventure ideas. Sometimes, inspiration comes from other influences. I thought this might be useful, or entertaining, or...whaddeveh. So, whaddeveh. Oh, my puter is still working!  |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 7, 2016 11:40:09 GMT -5
(sad sigh) Here I go...again. Posting in my, usual, annoying-puzzling-difficult to translate, verbiage about something that is, basically, a simple concept: this is a workshop thread, as I understand it. A place where folks can post ideas, snippets/fragments/fully-developed components of things they may or may not intend to actually utilize; but wish to show off their result. Or did I get this wrong? Generic? Specific? Is an underwater ranger necessarily one or the other? a spell that changes giants to butterflies? a backpack that magically transforms into a circus tent? etc. Yes, I suppose each of those could be one, or the other , or both. But who cares? I started the thread, simply, to see if members would be willing, or want, to post some of their adventure ideas. Sometimes, inspiration comes from other influences. I thought this might be useful, or entertaining, or...whaddeveh. So, whaddeveh. Oh, my puter is still working! The posting of plot hooks may spur other ideas for different takes on the same hook or different plot hooks altogether in the mind of the reader. Will they be generic, most likely unless someone wants to do a lot of writing. Something else that could be posted in this thread is "I read this and it inspired this". Another would be, I drew this map and here is the path it sent me down. I think all of these (and others) would all be useful. Instead of a list of hooks, how about a list of ideas on thinking creatively. Or a list of ways to prime the pump and get your creativity going. |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 7, 2016 13:08:34 GMT -5
CCC noted: " Oh, my puter is still working!"
Jolly good!
As for generic or specific, is not your campaign, my campaign, PD's campaign each specifically ours? Are they not made so through specific and not generic takes on material composition, thinking,integrating of content and study, etc.? This IS the state for all good design, brother, like it or not. It is not related to expediency (as are most forums and social media) but to exact and specific matter derived from individual assessment and application. General examples only go so far in noting, well, generic things. The idea that PD has invited people to post here about campaigns is a great thing as it allows us to share specific things that (I hope) we do not have in common. Campaigns are specific; and thus i keep looking for specific differences, not general sameness, dig it?? The more I sniff out general approaches to campaign and design crafting the more I smell sameness. So you'll have to forgive me for my critiques. Sameness has ruined this hobby and I have a special radar for it these days.
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Post by captaincrumbcake on Jun 7, 2016 13:34:47 GMT -5
Good points, Rob. The sameness factor is, indeed, as you describe.
That said, specificness ends when it becomes publicly accessible; downloaded, incorporated, into everyone's game/the hobby's masses.
A Ranger is generic, though--at one time, back when the concept was first introduced into its original source, it was unique...specific. It isn't now. Nor would one's re-imagined version of it; different brand, but same thing. A fireball spell is generic. It's all generic, unless the creator keeps it to himself.
So, posting a "new" item, spell, class, here in these threads--while perhaps original to the author--they certainly become generic in the broader scheme of things once within reach of anyone beyond the creator. Or, perhaps I just see things kind of...well...not so clear as others.
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 7, 2016 14:31:16 GMT -5
Good points, Rob. The sameness factor is, indeed, as you describe. That said, specificness ends when it becomes publicly accessible; downloaded, incorporated, into everyone's game/the hobby's masses. A Ranger is generic, though--at one time, back when the concept was first introduced into its original source, it was unique...specific. It isn't now. Nor would one's re-imagined version of it; different brand, but same thing. A fireball spell is generic. It's all generic, unless the creator keeps it to himself. So, posting a "new" item, spell, class, here in these threads--while perhaps original to the author--they certainly become generic in the broader scheme of things once within reach of anyone beyond the creator. Or, perhaps I just see things kind of...well...not so clear as others. The difference is: Are we designers or mere builders and sustainers of generality? You see CCC, I built my world, Kalibruhn, TOP>Down. There are no rangers; it's minus 99% of what you consider to be available to the masses, thus I do not struggle with originality nor the limitations besetting one through generalization ("oh! it's an ogre?" yawn, "I cast my sleep spell, pass the cheetos"...) And yes, that is the very reason why it takes me as a designer TONS of time to create things, because a good 80% of it is all new, situations, magic, monsters, etc. In fact if you were to just sample my monsters and magic I've created for just adventures, you could, by extrapolating both, publish two separate hard bound books therefrom. Why is this important? For two reasons at least: 1) Newness equals mystery and anxiety, keeps things fresh for the players out there; 2) It provides a base for myself as a designer to measure and to excel from. But then again, and BITD, there were no forums and everyone was doing things differently. The only time you found out about these things was during play or at conventions, or if you had something published in a fanzine or the SR, et al. There was no instantaneous posting and feedback and thus the point you make regarding such matter becoming generic is by choice (these days). One does not have to let the cat out of the bag by posting matter, you know. I don't and for good reasons. I like to surprise people with new angles, new stuff, and am not about trying to impress folks (too much). Then again, it's my world, my baby; and when I parade it it best be well dressed out, yah know? |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 8, 2016 13:54:40 GMT -5
1. As for generic or specific, is not your campaign, my campaign, PD's campaign each specifically ours? 2. Are they not made so through specific and not generic takes on material composition, thinking,integrating of content and study, etc.? This IS the state for all good design, brother, like it or not. 3. It is not related to expediency (as are most forums and social media) but to exact and specific matter derived from individual assessment and application. General examples only go so far in noting, well, generic things. The idea that PD has invited people to post here about campaigns is a great thing as it allows us to share specific things that (I hope) we do not have in common. Campaigns are specific; and thus i keep looking for specific differences, not general sameness, dig it?? The more I sniff out general approaches to campaign and design crafting the more I smell sameness. So you'll have to forgive me for my critiques. Sameness has ruined this hobby and I have a special radar for it these days. We all have different experiences and backgrounds and that leads to us understanding things differently. I know that I do not always express myself clearly and effectively and CCC has shared the same sentiment. CCC said: 1. I agree with this. 2. And I agree with this. Now I don't foresee anyone sitting down and creating a complete plot or scenario to post here. To do so it would have to be campaign specific IMO. However to list 10 or 100 or 1000 possible hooks/ideas is not IMO a bad thing and IMO that is really what CCC intended. Lets say that we generate such a list as CCC suggested and I go through that list. Some will not apply to my campaign in anyway, but they may apply in some fashion to some other campaign. So I discard the ones that don't apply, ignore the ones that don't resonate with me and select a few that do resonate or trigger possibilities IMO. So I take those few ideas, twisting, tweaking and polishing them to have I have something completely new and different for my campaign. Now granted that I normally do all those steps myself, does it hurt me at all when someone or many someones contribute to that first step. I don't think so, I think they saved me some time and I have a limited supply of time. 3. I think this is or can be what happens after the general list is generated. I think it is equally possible that this can generate something unique or sameness - and that depends on the individual designer - do I as a designer use everything I come across as is or do I put forth the additional time and effort to leave the starting point behind and create something unique and part of that depends on how much time I have to devote to the design process. Time constraints in the real world have to be acknowledged as a valid thing for many if not most of us. The difference is: Are we designers or mere builders and sustainers of generality? You see CCC, I built my world, Kalibruhn, TOP>Down. There are no rangers; it's minus 99% of what you consider to be available to the masses, thus I do not struggle with originality nor the limitations besetting one through generalization ("oh! it's an ogre?" yawn, "I cast my sleep spell, pass the cheetos"...) And yes, that is the very reason why it takes me as a designer TONS of time to create things, because a good 80% of it is all new, situations, magic, monsters, etc. In fact if you were to just sample my monsters and magic I've created for just adventures, you could, by extrapolating both, publish two separate hard bound books therefrom. Why is this important? For two reasons at least: 1)Newness equals mystery and anxiety, keeps things fresh for the players out there; 2) It provides a base for myself as a designer to measure and to excel from. But then again, and BITD, there were no forums and everyone was doing things differently. The only time you found out about these things was during play or at conventions, or if you had something published in a fanzine or the SR, et al. There was no instantaneous posting and feedback and thus the point you make regarding such matter becoming generic is by choice (these days). One does not have to let the cat out of the bag by posting matter, you know. I don't and for good reasons. I like to surprise people with new angles, new stuff, and am not about trying to impress folks (too much). Then again, it's my world, my baby; and when I parade it it best be well dressed out, yah know? I do not disagree with this, but let me give you a different perspective to consider. I don't have tons of time, if I did 80% of my stuff would also be brand new. I cannot speak for anyone else, however, I have a day job that runs 40-45 hours per week, I drive 45 min each way and I have a family and I have some other responsibilities outside of work that I will not go into. I do not do this for a living, I do it solely as a hobby. I have at best 5-6 hours per week to put into this hobby and I get to run my campaign once per month for about 4-5 hours. You do this for a living and publish for a living - the time you can put into design and the time I (and many others) can put into design are not even close. No matter how much I would like to be able to put the work into my design that you do, it is not possible and I am not going to beat myself up over it and I will use all options available with the goal of something new and different for my campaign. To the extent that we all fall short of what you do and what Arneson did, please consider that many of us are doing all we can do with the time we have available and I created this forum to support myself and others like me: run of the mill everyday joes who are trying to have fun running a campaign, want it to be fun for their friends and be new and unique to the extent that is possible considering most of us are not able to do this as a full time pursuit - with limited time and for many limited experience. I have an advantage to some extent because I have been playing and reffing for over 40 years and started with OD&D and have stayed with it. |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 8, 2016 15:23:03 GMT -5
The assumption that I have any more time than others is not true. A full 75% of my past design work was done AFTER working a FT job, I have predominantly worked 2 jobs in this life, that's the truth. The other fact is that building 10, 20 whatever number of plot hooks has no value to me as a designer because both my designs and my campaign are specific entities; they have their own specificity, and that's not because I come from a group like Arneson, or others, but that I have individual proclivities as a designer and a creator that will not match others, nor do I assume the reverse in exchange. I worked very hard to be able in the past 5 years to forego my day jobs of the past and concentrate solely on my professional career, and let me tell you PD, sacrifices were made to achieve that. Where did I note that anyone was falling short, btw? I expressed a design view about campaigns and backed it up with a well-reasoned argument. Is stating a design opinion based upon reasonably described stances now to be considered elitist?
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 8, 2016 15:49:53 GMT -5
The assumption that I have any more time than others is not true. A full 75% of my past design work was done AFTER working a FT job, I have predominantly worked 2 jobs in this life, that's the truth. Well then I stand corrected. The other fact is that building 10, 20 whatever number of plot hooks has no value to me as a designer because both my designs and my campaign are specific entities; they have their own specificity, and that's not because I come from a group like Arneson, or others, but that I have individual proclivities as a designer and a creator that will not match others, nor do I assume the reverse in exchange. While I do not disagree with the value (or lack thereof) of the thread for you personally, I do disagree with the (perceived) implication that the thread is of no value to the rest of us or the (perceived) implication that the thread will lead only to sameness and cannot lead to uniqueness. If the perception is wrong, please correct me. I worked very hard to be able in the past 5 years to forego my day jobs of the past and concentrate solely on my professional career, and let me tell you PD, sacrifices were made to achieve that. I have a great deal of respect for that and only wish you the best in your professional career and eagerly await the fruit of your labor. Where did I note that anyone was falling short, btw? I expressed a design view about campaigns and backed it up with a well-reasoned argument. Is stating a design opinion based upon reasonably described stances now to be considered elitist?No, stating your opinion in and of itself is not elitist. Here again, perhaps it is a matter of perception. If I am wrong, then correct me. I disagreed with the (perceived) implication that doing this could not work for anyone and that not doing all of the research yourself was not a good thing. IMO whether I start with a list on a forum, do a google search or go to the library and camp out and do massive research does not matter, it is what I do with it after that that matters. I can scan a list and pull out what is relevant to me and if you choose not to do so that does not invalidate that approach for me, if I choose to take it. I am not trying to insult you nor denigrate your sacrifices and the journey you have made to get where you are now. |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 8, 2016 16:16:01 GMT -5
We will agree to disagree, at least with this: "IMO whether I start with a list on a forum, do a google search or go to the library and camp out and do massive research does not matter, it is what I do with it after that that matters."
If I take the continent of Africa, for example, untouched by any other design perception and wield its raw data, I will be assured that what I design, whether good or bad or indifferent, is certainly based upon my own design perspective. That allows me to base my design attitude upon my own conclusions that I generate regarding the use of elements. If, however, I cull from game forums, etc I do not necessarily learn the processes related to making a specific design choice but rather a choice in the matter as an expedient extraction of what has been laid before me by another designer, thus the choice is not my own in two ways which will affect my design attitude in other ways, besides.: Further let's return to your time factor which you say you do not have. In deducing that you have no time for design one must resort to expediency. I'd like to point this out to everyone here, members, lurkers, the lot, that once one resorts to expediency they have left the realm of original design and they rarely return.
So the matter seems to me, at least in this case, is not one of serious design motives but expedient game data collecting. And once again, especially for those aspiring designers out there, i say this: do not go that route. Keep your designs your own and remain original. Yes, indeed look at the matters before you but like most designers do, reject the majority of it, Use it as a reinforcement of what you already know and that you can do better.
Now PD. We have it separated. I do not value the thread, and my comments were for those like myself who have more specific intents as designers. That does not mean that others unlike me will find their own levels of value from it, of course, whatever those are.
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