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Post by Silver Leaf on Jul 23, 2021 13:55:08 GMT -5
OD&D Mechanics vs Unified Mechanics how do you feel about them?
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Post by Silver Leaf on Jul 23, 2021 13:57:20 GMT -5
I hate Unified Mechanics because they are flavorless and bland. OD&D mechanics make you think and helps keep your mind agile, both of which are valuable in role playing. OD&D Mechanics are not broken and did not need fixing.
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Post by corbertsronley on Jul 23, 2021 14:23:54 GMT -5
I had to laugh because the Unified Mechanics zealots are often on the One True Way bandwagon and they look at OD&D Mechanics as broken and bad wrong fun. I am not sorry, if you stick Unified Mechanics or Ascending Armor Class in your "OSR" product you lose me as part of your audience.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jul 23, 2021 16:07:03 GMT -5
I have NO ISSUES with unified mechanics or OD&D mechanics.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 23, 2021 16:22:59 GMT -5
I have no problem using Unified Mechanics in the 5E game I am playing in right now; however, I don't like them for the same reason that I don't like the metric system. I grew up with the traditional English units and all the saying that go along with that. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile just sounds good and clear. You cannot update that to give them a centimeter and they'll take a kilometer just sounds odd and has no flow to it. No instead of these saying being updated, they will just be lost over time. I can use the metric system even 40 years after last using it on a regular basis, I can still (mostly) think in the metric system. But the naming system is just blah! in terms of anything other than business use. English units though have character and are derived from human experience and that makes them relatable.
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Post by hengest on Jul 23, 2021 21:45:02 GMT -5
I have no problem using Unified Mechanics in the 5E game I am playing in right now; however, I don't like them for the same reason that I don't like the metric system. I grew up with the traditional English units and all the saying that go along with that. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile just sounds good and clear. You cannot update that to give them a centimeter and they'll take a kilometer just sounds odd and has no flow to it. No instead of these saying being updated, they will just be lost over time. I can use the metric system even 40 years after last using it on a regular basis, I can still (mostly) think in the metric system. But the naming system is just blah! in terms of anything other than business use. English units though have character and are derived from human experience and that makes them relatable. I like how you brought up English / metric here. I have no problem with metric (international use) when it is helpful. But the oddities of the English system give each "unit" a face of its own rather than simply being a part or multiple of some ideal unit under glass somewhere. I saw Iris Dement once in a great little venue (link to a "live in the studio" performance of a classic song here). Some of her stage talk was about her mother, with whom she had gone shopping recently. She remarked that her mother (Flora Mae Dement, 1918–2011) used language in an older way. As I remember her words, they went something like this: "To my mother, for each word, there's a picture [that goes with it]...I don't know what a 'toxin' looks like..." She was talking about the same thing. Iris was born in 1961 and I think of her as a transitional figure in this regard. She has a foot in both worlds: - the "English" world where if a word has a physical referent, it likely refers to an object that can be experienced by the senses
- the "metric" world where things are increasingly cookie-cutter, abstract, and rely on language to create a notion rather than using it to decsribe experience
Obviously I am oversimplifying it here, there are people born later than Iris who have a concrete and earthy base for their use of English. But I would bet Iris was the first generation who could say that about her own mother, that there was a divide like this between them. Here is another link to a fine song from her 2015 album The Trackless Woods. Lyrics are from a translation (not Iris's) of a 1944 poem by Russian poet Anna Akhmatova. Now, I don't know whether Iris thought about The Perilous Dreamer 's topic here, but that topic is right there in the units of measurement in the first few lines: versts and miles ("wild" units formerly used in the Russian Empire) and then kilometers, part of the metric system adopted by the Soviet Union in 1925. So when she wrote this, nearly 20 years had gone by since the passing of the mile and verst, as well as countless horrible events in Russian history. It isn't said explicitly here, but as it seems to me, her use of these units of measurement unites the various empires and their customs of measurement around the land itself. Those verst / mile times gone by are part of the story of this land, just like the faceless kilometer in use now. Even that kilometer is still there to describe the real land that the speaker is connected to. At the same time, seeing those units together reminds us of the divide between units based on experience and those based on a random standard. Most translations themselves tend towards tasteless and the fact (to me, a fact) that Iris makes this song work, with lyrics that are someone else's translation of lines by someone born in 1889, means she really has something going on. Versts by the hundreds Miles by the hundreds Hundreds of dim kilometers beneath our track Reaches of salt marsh Feather grass that billowed Beyond the somber cedar groves showed black As though for the first time I saw my country And with a pang of recognition knew It is all mine and nothing can divide us It is my soul, it is my body, too Not to make too much of this idea, but I do think both Akhmatova, Iris, and The Perilous Dreamer are onto something here. Our linguistic habits are slowly putting a wedge between us and our actual experiences on earth, with the poor excuse of convenience. And to my taste, the "convenience" of a unified mechanical system is not worth nearly as much as a wonky, off-kilter, each-thing-works on its own system whose parts are more "concrete" in their uniqueness and strangeness. (Also, have an exalt, PD.) |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 24, 2021 0:12:00 GMT -5
I have no problem using Unified Mechanics in the 5E game I am playing in right now; however, I don't like them for the same reason that I don't like the metric system. I grew up with the traditional English units and all the saying that go along with that. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile just sounds good and clear. You cannot update that to give them a centimeter and they'll take a kilometer just sounds odd and has no flow to it. No instead of these saying being updated, they will just be lost over time. I can use the metric system even 40 years after last using it on a regular basis, I can still (mostly) think in the metric system. But the naming system is just blah! in terms of anything other than business use. English units though have character and are derived from human experience and that makes them relatable. She remarked that her mother (Flora Mae Dement, 1918–2011) used language in an older way. As I remember her words, they went something like this: "To my mother, for each word, there's a picture [that goes with it]...I don't know what a 'toxin' looks like..." snip Not to make too much of this idea, but I do think both Akhmatova, Iris, and The Perilous Dreamer are onto something here. Our linguistic habits are slowly putting a wedge between us and our actual experiences on earth, with the poor excuse of convenience. And to my taste, the "convenience" of a unified mechanical system is not worth nearly as much as a wonky, off-kilter, each-thing-works on its own system whose parts are more "concrete" in their uniqueness and strangeness. Have an Exalt for a great post. I was born in 1956 back in the WV hills, our road ran through the cricks to cross the water, no bridges, farming was horses and it was all manual labor. My parents were steeped in that world, we moved the summer I was three and transitioned to farming with tractors, but still mostly manual labor. I grew up using a lot of the old tools and learned to use things like a scythe and used it quite a bit.  I connect very strongly to that statement by her mother. My dad, both grandfathers and my uncles were all storytellers, they all could tell stories for weeks without repeating themselves. Your post really hits home for me. I belong more to that world that I do the modern one. That is why for me the unified mechanical system is faceless and barren. Here in the USA we place more value on the individual than anywhere else (IMO) and that is why even thoughThe public still resists every effort to do away with the English system of measurement. We instinctively know that it would be a huge cultural loss to convert to metric. We also instinctively know that to switch to that bland, faceless system that lacks a human connection to the world would be a loss of freedom and a defeat of tragic proportions. In a couple of generations a whole host of sayings would become incomprehensible to younger people, much of that has happened already with changing technology. Oh and btw, I love folk singers and the songs and the music. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jul 24, 2021 7:40:17 GMT -5
I belong more to that world that I do the modern one. That is why for me the unified mechanical system is faceless and barren. Here in the USA we place more value on the individual than anywhere else (IMO) and that is why even thoughThe public still resists every effort to do away with the English system of measurement. We instinctively know that it would be a huge cultural loss to convert to metric. We also instinctively know that to switch to that bland, faceless system that lacks a human connection to the world would be a loss of freedom and a defeat of tragic proportions. In a couple of generations a whole host of sayings would become incomprehensible to younger people, much of that has happened already with changing technology. Oh and btw, I love folk singers and the songs and the music. This speaks to me right here. I was born in 1972 and I entered the rpg scene in the summer of 1980. I never was able to play OD&D but I do have many sessions of experience with Holmes, B/X, & AD&D. ( confession - I never felt much love for Mentzer's BECMI or AD&D 2E.). I have always felt like a man misplaced in time when it comes to several of my interests. Music and gaming are two great examples of this. I find the old 70s metal/rock like Blue Oyster Cult or Black Sabbath more to my liking and still listen to that stuff today. Moving on to other music Fleetwood Mac, Boston, etc. are all great bands. I would dig an old REO Speedwagon arena show RIGHT NOW! Similar feelings arise from gaming, specifically D&D or "D&D-like" games. Holmes, B/X, and AD&D are great experiences. In fact, I would probably guess AD&D as my favorite. Although I have no problem using the unified mechanics of the present, there was nothing wrong with the old ways at all. Maybe that's why I am having such a hard time finding a gaming group? It seems like the newer players are obsessed with "builds", inserting politics, or just being plain goofy as Wut. I don't mean to sound like I'm opposed to having fun at a game session. You want to crack a joke or make a Monty Python reference then fire away. Wut, we had a player that got frustrated when all of the PCs in the group had tried to listen at a door and seemed to fail so he had his horse try...lmao. There is room for fun during a game. What I find unappealing is trying to turn D&D into The 3 Stooges or some other nonsense. I really miss the old days in the early to mid-80s where we would play ALL WEEKEND LONG many times. Ahhhh.....the good old days! Added: exalt! |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 24, 2021 8:32:49 GMT -5
The Semi-Retired Gamer I loved those long games, I remember playing on Friday night from 5 PM to between 1 and 3 AM and then playing from 1 PM Saturday to 3 AM. I remember a game that ran 24 hours+. Now games run 3 hours and 5 hours is considered a really long game. If I had my choice games would still run at least 8 hours on a Saturday. I was raised on country and rock 'n roll, both of which I loved (especially 50s & 60s and older) but I immediately at a young age to folk music and some of the blues. I love rag time piano and big band. I love a lot of music from pre-1900, much of which you can't play now. But back then as a kid I was attracted to the beauty of the tunes and it never would have occurred to anyone that there was anything wrong with any of the lyrics - certainly not to a kid. Those songs were in our 20-30 year old public school music books that were taught to sing out of. I do not either. I don't know why, but something about both set my teeth on edge.
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Post by hengest on Jul 24, 2021 8:54:52 GMT -5
I do not either. I don't know why, but something about both set my teeth on edge. I know what you mean. AD&D is like a dungeon with a bunch of random stuff in it, but BECMI and 2E are like some kind of tense showcase. Like it's all for display somehow. Related to the unified mechanic, but more subtle. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jul 24, 2021 10:30:29 GMT -5
The Semi-Retired Gamer I loved those long games, I remember playing on Friday night from 5 PM to between 1 and 3 AM and then playing from 1 PM Saturday to 3 AM. I remember a game that ran 24 hours+. Now games run 3 hours and 5 hours is considered a really long game. If I had my choice games would still run at least 8 hours on a Saturday. I was raised on country and rock 'n roll, both of which I loved (especially 50s & 60s and older) but I immediately at a young age to folk music and some of the blues. I love rag time piano and big band. I love a lot of music from pre-1900, much of which you can't play now. But back then as a kid I was attracted to the beauty of the tunes and it never would have occurred to anyone that there was anything wrong with any of the lyrics - certainly not to a kid. Those songs were in our 20-30 year old public school music books that were taught to sing out of. I do not either. I don't know why, but something about both set my teeth on edge. 8 hours on a Saturday sounds like a dream come true! Your weekend gaming sessions is pretty much exactly how ours took place also Folk music is good stuff too. As far as BECMI and AD&D 2E goes I think the problem for me is they both felt safe, sanity, and sterile to me. Maybe watered down for the masses is a better explanation? Just look at the art. Neither one has "bad art" but it certainly doesn't evoke the same sort of reaction as the art from Holmes, B/X, or the AD&D manuals. 2E is the first edition that I never bought the books for after looking through them. It seemed like they were trying to kick Gygax out of the game by removing Half-Orcs, Barbarians, Assassins, Monks, and by not using terms like "demon" or "devil" for monster. If I recall correctly, there was some information that was included in the PHB that used to be clearly in the realm of the DMG so they seemed to be shifting focus to gimme, gimme, gimme for the players. Kits is one example. A decent enough idea but the execution went haywire. I can understand the complaints about supplemental material in 3E but that fad clearly started in 2E with "The Complete Book of..." series that players were gobbling up. I could have sworn I saw a Complete Book of Torches for sale somewhere....  . |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jul 24, 2021 10:33:13 GMT -5
I do not either. I don't know why, but something about both set my teeth on edge. I know what you mean. AD&D is like a dungeon with a bunch of random stuff in it, but BECMI and 2E are like some kind of tense showcase. Like it's all for display somehow. Related to the unified mechanic, but more subtle. I get what you're saying. I think I'm going to get on drivethrurpg and order up the AD&D core reprints and Unearthed Arcana. That's what I *REALLY* want to be playing. My collection feels like it's gapped without them. My original copies "disappeared" when I was in the Army.  |
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Post by El Borak on Jul 24, 2021 23:19:12 GMT -5
This speaks to me right here. Ditto!! |
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Post by mao on Jul 26, 2021 3:46:57 GMT -5
Could you explain to me what Unified Mechanics are?
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jul 26, 2021 9:34:18 GMT -5
Could you explain to me what Unified Mechanics are? All tasks (combat, thief skills, saves, etc.) use the same mechanic instead D20 roll low, D20 roll high, and percentile scores. |
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Post by mao on Jul 26, 2021 9:35:45 GMT -5
Could you explain to me what Unified Mechanics are? All tasks (combat, thief skills, saves, etc.) use the same mechanic instead D20 roll low, D20 roll high, and percentile scores. Oh ok, don't care But thanx. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jul 26, 2021 9:43:45 GMT -5
All tasks (combat, thief skills, saves, etc.) use the same mechanic instead D20 roll low, D20 roll high, and percentile scores. Oh ok, don't care But thanx. You're welcome. I think you and I are the two holdouts. LOL. |
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Post by mao on Jul 30, 2021 6:53:31 GMT -5
I know this is an OD&D site but I can't see the hate. Why do peeps care so passionately against these? I really could care less.
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Post by hengest on Jul 30, 2021 7:04:34 GMT -5
I know this is an OD&D site but I can't see the hate. Why do peeps care so passionately against these? I really could care less. I don't care passionately. I just prefer descending. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 30, 2021 10:54:42 GMT -5
I know this is an OD&D site but I can't see the hate. Why do peeps care so passionately against these? I really could care less. I don't care passionately. I just prefer descending. I think the passion on this comes from 3E, when 3E came out and was not compatible with anything that came before, the first IN YOUR FACE thing was the AAC. That sent the message that regardless of what we say, we really don't care about the original fans of D&D. AAC was WotC drawing a line in the sand. AD&D and even 2nd AD&D were not compatible, but could be made compatible on the fly with OD&D. But AD&D was the standard game and 3E could not be made compatible with it going either direction. Plus the thing that really upset original fans of TSR games was the ending of all support for what came before and everything going out of print. The OD&D fans (a tiny group) had already went through this with TSR. But then the BECMI and AD&D fans the two large groups had to go through it, you had the quick converters and you had the absolutely never groups. The former being the larger of the two groups. Then WotC stuck it to the 3E fans with 4E which was completely incompatible with 3E and so WotC lost a boatload of customers to Pathfinder. Now with 5E, I could never run it, too much fiddly stuff. But I can play it, but never ref it. WotC has another strike against them and that is all the game companies they bought up and then buried the IP of hundreds if not thousands of games, that are unlikely to ever see the light of day again. They forced whole fan bases into piracy. Many fan bases have absolutely no other option. There are tons of games we would probably like, but will we will never even know they existed. |
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Post by hengest on Jul 30, 2021 12:20:54 GMT -5
I don't care passionately. I just prefer descending. I think the passion on this comes from 3E, when 3E came out and was not compatible with anything that came before, the first IN YOUR FACE thing was the AAC. That sent the message that regardless of what we say, we really don't care about the original fans of D&D. AAC was WotC drawing a line in the sand. AD&D and even 2nd AD&D were not compatible, but could be made compatible on the fly with OD&D. But AD&D was the standard game and 3E could not be made compatible with it going either direction. Plus the thing that really upset original fans of TSR games was the ending of all support for what came before and everything going out of print. The OD&D fans (a tiny group) had already went through this with TSR. But then the BECMI and AD&D fans the two large groups had to go through it, you had the quick converters and you had the absolutely never groups. The former being the larger of the two groups. Then WotC stuck it to the 3E fans with 4E which was completely incompatible with 3E and so WotC lost a boatload of customers to Pathfinder. Now with 5E, I could never run it, too much fiddly stuff. But I can play it, but never ref it. WotC has another strike against them and that is all the game companies they bought up and then buried the IP of hundreds if not thousands of games, that are unlikely to ever see the light of day again. They forced whole fan bases into piracy. Many fan bases have absolutely no other option. There are tons of games we would probably like, but will we will never even know they existed. This is unacceptable behavior in my opinion and, fortunately, I have no need to buy products because that makes it easy not to buy any of theirs. That is simple ridiculous and harmful to what is already a niche hobby. Probably a committee made this decision and it has simply been implemented and then forgotten. Absolutely unacceptable to force people into piracy when you could sell the products as downloads for a reasonable price, bring in some money, and show that you care about the fans and the hobby. |
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Post by mao on Jul 30, 2021 13:56:17 GMT -5
I think the hipster could be taught the old D&D if WOTC published it again
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 30, 2021 14:10:36 GMT -5
I think the hipster could be taught the old D&D if WOTC published it again Hmm, I looked up hipster and found this: So what do you mean when you say hipster? |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 30, 2021 14:26:05 GMT -5
I think the passion on this comes from 3E, when 3E came out and was not compatible with anything that came before, the first IN YOUR FACE thing was the AAC. That sent the message that regardless of what we say, we really don't care about the original fans of D&D. AAC was WotC drawing a line in the sand. AD&D and even 2nd AD&D were not compatible, but could be made compatible on the fly with OD&D. But AD&D was the standard game and 3E could not be made compatible with it going either direction. Plus the thing that really upset original fans of TSR games was the ending of all support for what came before and everything going out of print. The OD&D fans (a tiny group) had already went through this with TSR. But then the BECMI and AD&D fans the two large groups had to go through it, you had the quick converters and you had the absolutely never groups. The former being the larger of the two groups. Then WotC stuck it to the 3E fans with 4E which was completely incompatible with 3E and so WotC lost a boatload of customers to Pathfinder. Now with 5E, I could never run it, too much fiddly stuff. But I can play it, but never ref it. WotC has another strike against them and that is all the game companies they bought up and then buried the IP of hundreds if not thousands of games, that are unlikely to ever see the light of day again. They forced whole fan bases into piracy. Many fan bases have absolutely no other option. There are tons of games we would probably like, but will we will never even know they existed. This is unacceptable behavior in my opinion and, fortunately, I have no need to buy products because that makes it easy not to buy any of theirs. That is simple ridiculous and harmful to what is already a niche hobby. Probably a committee made this decision and it has simply been implemented and then forgotten. Absolutely unacceptable to force people into piracy when you could sell the products as downloads for a reasonable price, bring in some money, and show that you care about the fans and the hobby. These days they don't have to reprint all of those games, just make good scans and put a dozen up every month until the whole catalog in available in digital form. To encourage people not to pirate they could say once a certain number of digital sales are made, it enables POD and if you already bought the pdf, then you get the hard copy for cost or printing +10% plus shipping. |
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Post by mao on Jul 30, 2021 14:49:40 GMT -5
i guess my def of hipster is really "goofy collage kids" I hve been told they are the huge influx of gamers w 5th The Perilous Dreamer |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 30, 2021 15:58:04 GMT -5
i guess my def of hipster is really "goofy collage kids" I hve been told they are the huge influx of gamers w 5th The Perilous Dreamer I never would have connected hipster with college kids. |
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Post by Gawaine on Aug 8, 2022 21:13:35 GMT -5
I really get tired of everything having to be standardized and the same, what happened to the old saying that variety is the spice of life.
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Post by DFL_GM on Aug 9, 2022 11:37:18 GMT -5
I really get tired of everything having to be standardized and the same, what happened to the old saying that variety is the spice of life. How can you get into Unified Mechanics for old school gaming, when the heavily enforced main stream paradigm in every area of our lives today is everyone has to be a round peg in a round hole and if you are not a round peg, then they will cut you up until you are a round peg. |
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Post by Barfog on Aug 9, 2022 15:49:22 GMT -5
I despise Unified Mechanics.
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Post by Molcho on Aug 11, 2022 22:07:51 GMT -5
I really get tired of everything having to be standardized and the same, what happened to the old saying that variety is the spice of life. How can you get into Unified Mechanics for old school gaming, when the heavily enforced main stream paradigm in every area of our lives today is everyone has to be a round peg in a round hole and if you are not a round peg, then they will cut you up until you are a round peg. This, QFT! |
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