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Post by tetramorph on Jun 2, 2015 19:13:59 GMT -5
The abstraction of “Alignment,” corresponds to the battle “line up,” drawn by the King of Heaven for the Last Battle. Alignment is therefore archetypal and mythomorphic. The primordial chaos monster, Mater Chaos, is Leviathan, Tiamat, Yam, Cyclone. Monsters and Fell are her wicked spawn and brood. Given the campaign “hook,” player characters start out Lawful, although argument may be made for Neutral characters, especially in the case of magi and “scouts.” At higher levels players may take on certain key Chaotic characters within the campaign. As with old school play in general, alignment is descriptive rather than prescriptive for characters. Thus alignment changes easily based upon character decision.
• Lawful = good for flourishing of all free races, e.g., both human and fay, thus implying a kind of "universalism:" “Universal Law of heaven against the Chaos” • Neutral = good for local family unit, clan group, in-group and thus a kind of tribalism, still trying to keep chaos at bay: “pagan struggle with immanent forces for survival” • Chaotic = bad for the flourishing of free races and therefore monstrous, fell: “of or having to do with the primordial chaos and the entropy of things”
Alignment terminology does not describe a character’s personality or their relative predictability, as in Advanced Edition Rules. Lawful is definitely not “goody two-shoes.” The Lawful often rule with an iron fist (some of them, sometimes). Do they want to slay the primordial chaos monster and establish cosmos out of chaos? Then they are Lawful. Do they want to unleash the primordial chaos monster and revel in the supposed riches unleashed and go down in flames as long as that might last? Then they are Chaotic. Have they not yet heard that there is such a thing as a universal Law (still pagan), or are they skeptical of this new "universalism," worrying that it might wash out what is unique about their tribe or race or people? Then they are Neutral.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 2, 2015 21:43:31 GMT -5
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Post by Necromancer on Jun 3, 2015 2:53:53 GMT -5
As we have discussed this earlier, I'm generally not a big fan of using an allignment system for RPG's, but I really like what you have done with it here. It is well-thought and well-designed, suiting Dun Kells perfectly on a conceptual level. Great work, tetramorph!
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Post by merctime on Jun 3, 2015 12:31:09 GMT -5
I have to agree with our gaming brothers above. This is great.
I'm especially enamoured with how you clearly identify that alignment is descriptive as opposed to prescriptive. I love the wording in that statement; Very succinct yet truly brings the point across.
I, too, believe alignment is separate from personality.
Beautifully written!
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Post by jmccann on Jun 3, 2015 20:51:19 GMT -5
Alignment has bugged me for a long time and I have been struggling with how to incorporate it. I like how you treat it here.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jun 7, 2015 16:52:31 GMT -5
tetramorph, that's one of the best - if not the best - way of describing alignment without directly attaching it to personality. Separating alignment and personality makes perfect sense and is much easier to implement and use in game. Have an Exalt!
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Post by jmccann on Jun 7, 2015 22:39:03 GMT -5
I think that what is going on in this thread is that something like the lords of Law and Chaos, as described by Moorcock, do battle in each world. Since each world is different, Law and Chaos manifest differently within these worlds. In Dun Kells, the struggle between Law and Chaos take this form as a result of local conditions. In other campaigns, Law and Chaos will take different forms.
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Post by merctime on Jun 7, 2015 22:46:53 GMT -5
I love that bridge of thought, jmccann. I'm going to have to re-read me some Moorcock... It's been far too long! Exalt be upon you!
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Post by jmccann on Jun 8, 2015 1:07:56 GMT -5
I love that bridge of thought, jmccann. I'm going to have to re-read me some Moorcock... It's been far too long! Exalt be upon you! Thanks. I have recently read some Moorcock, as you might guess. The book I read was Elric, the Stealer of Souls, 2008 Del Rey Books. Stories from Science Fantasy from 1961 to 1964 are reprinted in this book.
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Post by merctime on Jun 8, 2015 1:09:21 GMT -5
I appreciate the head's up about that. I think I'll head over to my favorite brick n' mortar and ask them about that one. Thank you!
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jun 8, 2015 4:15:43 GMT -5
I'm getting the itch to read some Elric now. I have the 4 volumes from the Science Fiction Book Club sitting on my shelf just waiting to be read again...
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 29, 2016 15:43:13 GMT -5
Hey everybody, Admin Pete , Necromancer , merctime , jmccann , The Semi-Retired Gamer , and other friendly interested folks: I've been thinking about alignment, or "line up" a bit more philosophically recently. It doesn't change anything I say above, but does add another layer of nuance. It comes out of the stuff I've been thinking about, merging the mythic underworld with the wilderness as demon haunted lands. What if Law, Chaos and Neutrality represent one's understanding of the the fundamental principle, and therefore goal, of reality? Law = Order, beauty, structure, form Chaos = Power, energy, flux Neutrality = The Void What if all the great philosophers, and even some of the theologians recognize these three fundamental principles or archetypes to exist. But they only name one as truly primordial. There is Lex Pater, the God of Law, Mater Chaos, the goddess of the gods of Chaos, and then there is the Void. This could do something interesting, allowing for variation like the AD&D alignment system does without being "9 point." You could understand the hierarchy of these fundamental principles in many different ways: Law then Neutrality Law then Chaos Chaos then Neutrality Chaos then Law Neutrality then Law Neutrality then Chaos Boy wouldn't that be interesting?! My character is lawful chaotic! That means he thinks order is fundamental to all things and should prove our true aim. But this takes energy and embracing the flux to empower our ride there! My character is chaotic lawful! That means he thinks all is flux and the best thing to do is seek to release all energies. But this takes order and study and strict hierarchies to achieve well. My character is neutral. That means he thinks he is a chance formation out of the Void and to the Void he will return. If he is Neutral Lawful he thinks that order will sustain him on the way to the Void. If he is Neutral Chaotic, he thinks that the release of energy will take him back to the Void by the surest (and perhaps most fun) route. In this way, neutrality is not "half way" between law and chaos. It becomes a "3 point alignment." A kind of triangle defining a continuum or set of continua along which people and creatures "align" themselves. What do you think?
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 29, 2016 21:27:35 GMT -5
That is wild, I really like it!
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Post by hengest on Nov 5, 2016 19:28:44 GMT -5
In this way, neutrality is not "half way" between law and chaos. It becomes a "3 point alignment." A kind of triangle defining a continuum or set of continua along which people and creatures "align" themselves. What do you think? Coolest twist / take I've seen on alignment...ever? Nice! I hope to see how this would shake things up if that PbP campaign ever pops up!
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 5, 2016 21:39:51 GMT -5
In this way, neutrality is not "half way" between law and chaos. It becomes a "3 point alignment." A kind of triangle defining a continuum or set of continua along which people and creatures "align" themselves. What do you think? Coolest twist / take I've seen on alignment...ever? Nice! I hope to see how this would shake things up if that PbP campaign ever pops up! Wow, that is really flattering. Thanks, man.
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 12, 2016 19:30:15 GMT -5
Admin Pete, Necromancer, merctime, jmccann, The Semi-Retired Gamer, Mighty Darci, hengest, and other interested parties: Hey look! Just for fun I noticed that my "6 point alignment" may be roughly compared to the six classical philosophical schools: LN = Platonism LC = Aristotelianism NL = Stoicism NC = Epicureanism CL = Skepticism CN = Cynicism Rad! Now that seems possibly ripe for some fun campaign stuff! Seems like it would be fun to abstract and fictionalize some of these things in some crazy old books they find and some crazy old sages they encounter. "Look here," says the crazy wizened old man, "here be the scrolls of Epictirius [Fictional fantastical Epicurean, NC]. He tells the true nature of things, 'From the Void erupts the Flux, out of Flux men fashion laws. So eat, drink and be merry. But do so in moderation, for your dissolution is sure to come in time and you will take no enjoyment if you journey to quickly along the way of all things. For the way of all things is also the way of all the Cosmos: total dissolution in the great final conflagration!' Ha ha ha ha!" he laughs robustly, darting wild eyes at each of you.
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Post by hengest on Nov 13, 2016 8:38:04 GMT -5
This is how fun is had.
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Post by Necromancer on Nov 16, 2016 6:34:27 GMT -5
Cool idea, tetramorph! Incorporating philosophy in RPG's might add both depth and fun!
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