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Post by ripx187 on Aug 26, 2019 17:31:57 GMT -5
The most inspring work of fantasy fiction is The Lord of the Rings. Now just because the books had been published didn't mean that the author was done writing about them. Much of his background and scraps of stories has been collected and his son has spent his life trying to put things in order and adding to the mythos. As a stand alone project, The Lord of the Rings appears to be a story of Good vs. Evil, and there are elements of Good vs. Evil present in the work but this is for the most part immature. If one reads further, one finds that things aren't really as cut and dry as they appear to be. Sauron's "evil" and chaoes had gone through different changes. Does Sauron wake up one day and decide to make the world a horrible place unfit for goodness just because . . . well, for no reason really. He doesn't! Sauron was a manipulator, but his original intentions for the world were to speed up technology, to bring about change. He was thwarted and punished by the elves who saw what he had to offer and called it evil. Deemed it evil, so it was.
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 26, 2019 17:59:10 GMT -5
After the publishing of Lord of the Rings, he started filling out more details. One character that changed through this process was Lady Galadriel. She became a more complex character than was originally presented. While changing her, this also lead to creating a more expanded role of Sauron. Both became morally ambiguant, and both were punished by the elves. Galadriel managed to redeam herself, while Sauron was not.
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Post by raikenclw on Sept 4, 2019 21:57:04 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, Tolkien began writing during WWI, so it's easy to suppose that the early Black vs. White would have reflected that conflict's beginnings. But as the war became the pointless slaughter which would lead to The Lost Generation (both literally and figuratively), one can easily see moral ambiguity creeping into his work.
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Post by ripx187 on Sept 4, 2019 23:18:33 GMT -5
Tolkien served in WWI, and at some point during this time the first line of the Hobbit came into his mind, which he kept with him until he got back home. When he was alive, he insisted that the Lord of the Rings had nothing to do with his experiences in the war. Most of his work on the setting was related more with myth and legend than with the books published. I guess that his first "Story" in Middle Earth was not the hobbit, but the myth of Huron which happened during the first age, the events of the ring didn't happen until the fourth. The amount of background material which he never intended to publish is amazing.
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Post by raikenclw on Sept 4, 2019 23:51:43 GMT -5
When he was alive, he insisted that the Lord of the Rings had nothing to do with his experiences in the war. Yep. Just like my father's episodes of black depression had nothing to do with his experiences in WWII . . . The amount of background material which he never intended to publish is amazing. His third son has been doing his level best to "correct" this. The vibrations from the spinning should have at least tilted Tolkien's headstone by now . . .  |
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Post by ripx187 on Sept 5, 2019 11:31:08 GMT -5
When he was alive, he insisted that the Lord of the Rings had nothing to do with his experiences in the war. Yep. Just like my father's episodes of black depression had nothing to do with his experiences in WWII . . . The amount of background material which he never intended to publish is amazing. His third son has been doing his level best to "correct" this. The vibrations from the spinning should have at least tilted Tolkien's headstone by now . . . It was WWI, and a really really bad one. Mordor sounds exactly like the effects of trench warfare, that is a living hell which he endured. For the record, I agree with you. He just didn't want to talk about the war and preferred to talk about things that interested him instead. All of the lectures on the books tend to look at the parallels of the great war, particularly the role of the hobbit. I am a big fan, and I'm thankful for what Christopher has done. I'm currently reading the unfinished tales, and am very pleased with it! He takes a very scholarly approach to the subject and has uncovered the deeper meanings under the text, not from a philosophical point of view, but from the linguistic and historical approach. It's a lot of fun! The new books, I want to say that they are written by Professor Tolkien, but edited and bridged together by Christopher. The Children of Huron was published in fairly raw states. Tolkien wrote many of these old tales several times in the form of notes and correspondence, reworking them and blending them into the published work. The thing is that even Tolkiens trash is valuable. Huron and his children are not modern heroes, they are flawed and very traditional in prose. The adventures which they have are incredibly fun to read if you enjoy reading myths. These people are doomed, yet they fight not a man but a god who torments them at every opportunity. |
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Post by raikenclw on Sept 5, 2019 23:10:09 GMT -5
It was WWI, and a really really bad one. Mordor sounds exactly like the effects of trench warfare, that is a living hell which he endured. For the record, I agree with you. He just didn't want to talk about the war and preferred to talk about things that interested him instead. All of the lectures on the books tend to look at the parallels of the great war, particularly the role of the hobbit. Agree completely! I am a big fan, and I'm thankful for what Christopher has done. I'm currently reading the unfinished tales, and am very pleased with it! He takes a very scholarly approach to the subject and has uncovered the deeper meanings under the text, not from a philosophical point of view, but from the linguistic and historical approach. It's a lot of fun! I've read the Ring trilogy twice and The Hobbit three times, but I think that probably makes me only a middling fan. I've never read any of the additional material, but I'll have to check them out, now. I tend to be the sort of GM who has fun fiddling with background material that players would likely never encounter, so I would probably enjoy such a peak behind the scenes. The new books, I want to say that they are written by Professor Tolkien, but edited and bridged together by Christopher. The Children of Huron was published in fairly raw states. Tolkien wrote many of these old tales several times in the form of notes and correspondence, reworking them and blending them into the published work. The thing is that even Tolkiens trash is valuable. BTW, I'm not picking on Christopher. He has brought pleasure to many fans. I just think the Professor himself wouldn't (doesn't?) like having unpolished work put out for all to see. Huron and his children are not modern heroes, they are flawed and very traditional in prose. The adventures which they have are incredibly fun to read if you enjoy reading myths. These people are doomed, yet they fight not a man but a god who torments them at every opportunity. Sort of like Traveller PCs going up against a megacorp? |
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Post by mao on Sept 6, 2019 13:36:32 GMT -5
I know that I am a minority of one, but I dislike the big 3 books. I found them rather boring(keeping in mind that this reader far prefers short stories<less than 21 pages at that>) That being said I do have a respect for it as a setting, ripe for ripping and stealing for Arnson and Gygax.I'll have to read the Wiki of the new stuff to ee if there is anything wprth taking from it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2019 21:29:31 GMT -5
I first read the Trilogy in 1972. It opened up worlds I never thought possible. It has a special place in my heart and I read it plus The Hobbit at least once per year.
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Post by ripx187 on Sept 6, 2019 22:36:45 GMT -5
I enjoy HOW it was written. You can imagine yourself sitting around a campfire quietly listening to this epic unfold. Sad elven tales, dwarven ballads of lost empires, ancient kingdoms crumbling into dust. This is an old place, yet a place still alive! I long to be there. I enjoy any scrap of that magical world that I can get.
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Post by raikenclw on Sept 7, 2019 3:54:45 GMT -5
I know that I am a minority of one, but I dislike the big 3 books. I found them rather boring(keeping in mind that this reader far prefers short stories<less than 21 pages at that>) That being said I do have a respect for it as a setting, ripe for ripping and stealing for Arnson and Gygax.I'll have to read the Wiki of the new stuff to ee if there is anything wprth taking from it. Don't feel bad. Tolkien's writing is definitely slow-paced and thus not for all tastes. But consider that I'm also the boy who consumed Alex Haley's Roots cover to cover in one (very long!) late summer day, back in 1976 (when I was 12). |
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Post by raikenclw on Sept 7, 2019 3:59:51 GMT -5
I enjoy HOW it was written. You can imagine yourself sitting around a campfire quietly listening to this epic unfold. Sad elven tales, dwarven ballads of lost empires, ancient kingdoms crumbling into dust. This is an old place, yet a place still alive! I long to be there. Yes. That's the definition of great writing, for me. S. M. Stirling's Change series sometimes inspires the same sort of feeling. Although - in both realms - I'd probably prefer to never leave the safe environs of the village/dun, where I actually to be there. I may play adventure games, but going on an actual adventure would leave me feeling like your typical hobbit. I enjoy any scrap of that magical world that I can get. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Sept 9, 2019 19:56:57 GMT -5
I know that I am a minority of one, but I dislike the big 3 books. I found them rather boring(keeping in mind that this reader far prefers short stories<less than 21 pages at that>) That being said I do have a respect for it as a setting, ripe for ripping and stealing for Arnson and Gygax.I'll have to read the Wiki of the new stuff to ee if there is anything wprth taking from it.  I like short stories and all lengths up to the 1200 page tomes that some fantasy writers do these days. I like 99%+ of the books I read, I rarely pick one up that I do not like, but when I do I find it completely unreadable and put it back down and walk away. |
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Post by raikenclw on Sept 11, 2019 8:18:11 GMT -5
I rarely pick one up that I do not like, but when I do I find it completely unreadable and put it back down and walk away. I currently tend to read novels by a limited list of authors . . . Anderson, Taylor - The Destroyer series; a WWII destroyer and crew plus some Nipponese opponents on an alternate Earth with aliens. Aaronovitch, Ben - The Rivers of London series; part police procedural, part urban fantasy (magic's rare, as it fries your brain). Brooks, Mike - Dark Run and it's sequels (very Traveller). Burke, James Lee - New addition, been listening to his Dave Robicheaux novels on CD/Audible, wish I could describe scenes this well! Butcher, Jim - The Dresden File series, but also hoping for an Aeronaut's Windlass sequel and tempted to start the Code Alera series. Cook, Glen - The Black Company series, as well as the Dread Empire and Garret PI books (currently up to #9 Faded Steel Heat). Drake, David - Everything, but especially the Hammer's Slammers. Hamilton, Laurell K. - Everything (even though the middle Anita Blake books had a few too many rose petals between the good parts). [Harris, Charlaine - Everything she's written, from her early Graves series through the Sookie Stackhouse (True Blood) books to her new Gunnie Rose post-apocalypse series. I don't believe I forgot Harris!  ] Harrison, Kim - The Hollows series and related works; also read "Drafter" but think it could have used a better editor. Hunter, Faith - Jane Yellowrock and Soulwood series (both ongoing), Rogue Mage trilogy (this got made into an RPG!) Morin, J. S. - Black Ocean/Mobius series; Firefly but with magic (FTL via manipulation of astral space). Ringo, John - Pretty much everything, except for the latter Ring of Fire works (got too confused when the series branched so much!) Stirling, S.M. - The Change novels and related works; can't *wait* to see how the current Cthulu mythos plotline works out! Taylor, Travis S - Warp Speed series, Looking Glass series, Tau Ceti Agenda series Weber, David - Everything . . . except some of the latter Honorverse novels, to which I've not yet gotten around. Wilson, Daniel - Robopocalypse and it's sequel Robogenesis. But I'm intending to branch out to: Alexander, K.C. - Necrotech Anderson, Keven J. - The Dark Between The Stars and sequels. Armstrong, Kelley - Plan to start with Bitten. Chu, Wesley - Tao/Io and Time series Boffard, Rob - Tracer Erickson, Steve - Willful Child Snodgrass, Melinda M. - Haven't read her since original Wild Cards, but I hear good things about the "Edge" series. I didn't realize how much science fiction/science fantasy I was into, until I started writing out the above. |
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Post by El Borak on Sept 11, 2019 19:18:56 GMT -5
I know that I am a minority of one, but I dislike the big 3 books. I found them rather boring(keeping in mind that this reader far prefers short stories<less than 21 pages at that>) That being said I do have a respect for it as a setting, ripe for ripping and stealing for Arnson and Gygax.I'll have to read the Wiki of the new stuff to ee if there is anything wprth taking from it. Well nobody is perfect. And you were so close!  |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Sept 13, 2019 19:51:52 GMT -5
I rarely pick one up that I do not like, but when I do I find it completely unreadable and put it back down and walk away. I currently tend to read novels by a limited list of authors . . . Anderson, Taylor - The Destroyer series; a WWII destroyer and crew plus some Nipponese opponents on an alternate Earth with aliens. Aaronovitch, Ben - The Rivers of London series; part police procedural, part urban fantasy (magic's rare, as it fries your brain). Brooks, Mike - Dark Run and it's sequels (very Traveller). Burke, James Lee - New addition, been listening to his Dave Robicheaux novels on CD/Audible, wish I could describe scenes this well! Butcher, Jim - The Dresden File series, but also hoping for an Aeronaut's Windlass sequel and tempted to start the Code Alera series. Cook, Glen - The Black Company series, as well as the Dread Empire and Garret PI books (currently up to #9 Faded Steel Heat). Drake, David - Everything, but especially the Hammer's Slammers. Hamilton, Laurell K. - Everything (even though the middle Anita Blake books had a few too many rose petals between the good parts). [Harris, Charlaine - Everything she's written, from her early Graves series through the Sookie Stackhouse (True Blood) books to her new Gunnie Rose post-apocalypse series. I don't believe I forgot Harris! ] Harrison, Kim - The Hollows series and related works; also read "Drafter" but think it could have used a better editor. Hunter, Faith - Jane Yellowrock and Soulwood series (both ongoing), Rogue Mage trilogy (this got made into an RPG!) Morin, J. S. - Black Ocean/Mobius series; Firefly but with magic (FTL via manipulation of astral space). Ringo, John - Pretty much everything, except for the latter Ring of Fire works (got too confused when the series branched so much!) Stirling, S.M. - The Change novels and related works; can't *wait* to see how the current Cthulu mythos plotline works out! Taylor, Travis S - Warp Speed series, Looking Glass series, Tau Ceti Agenda series Weber, David - Everything . . . except some of the latter Honorverse novels, to which I've not yet gotten around. Wilson, Daniel - Robopocalypse and it's sequel Robogenesis. But I'm intending to branch out to: Alexander, K.C. - Necrotech Anderson, Keven J. - The Dark Between The Stars and sequels. Armstrong, Kelley - Plan to start with Bitten. Chu, Wesley - Tao/Io and Time series Boffard, Rob - Tracer Erickson, Steve - Willful Child Snodgrass, Melinda M. - Haven't read her since original Wild Cards, but I hear good things about the "Edge" series. I didn't realize how much science fiction/science fantasy I was into, until I started writing out the above. darn, I think that I’ll need to check out several of those authors and series raikenclw. Have you read any of Patricia Briggs’ Mercy Thomas and related Alpha Omega series? |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Sept 14, 2019 19:49:37 GMT -5
I know that I am a minority of one, but I dislike the big 3 books. I found them rather boring(keeping in mind that this reader far prefers short stories<less than 21 pages at that>) That being said I do have a respect for it as a setting, ripe for ripping and stealing for Arnson and Gygax.I'll have to read the Wiki of the new stuff to ee if there is anything wprth taking from it. Don't feel bad. Tolkien's writing is definitely slow-paced and thus not for all tastes. But consider that I'm also the boy who consumed Alex Haley's Roots cover to cover in one (very long!) late summer day, back in 1976 (when I was 12). Yeah, when I re-read The Hobbit and the LotR I prefer to do it all in one sitting. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Sept 14, 2019 22:31:53 GMT -5
I may not have finished the return of the king & never reread it or the Hobbit. I preferred Dennis Mckiernan’s Mithgard series and other fantasy to LotR’s. But I may reread the Hobbit and the LotR after all.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Sept 15, 2019 0:08:43 GMT -5
I may not have finished the return of the king & never reread it or the Hobbit. I preferred Dennis Mckiernan’s Mithgard series and other fantasy to LotR’s. But I may reread the Hobbit and the LotR after all. I enjoyed Dennis Mckiernan’s Mithgard series quite a lot and I really like his Hobbit clones the Warrows (Waerlinga). |
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Post by raikenclw on Sept 15, 2019 6:01:37 GMT -5
darn, I think that I’ll need to check out several of those authors and series raikenclw. Don't be *too* impressed. Recall that I have a "job" where I'm paid mostly to just stay awake [hotel night audit]. Reading/listening-to books helps mightily with that. Have you read any of Patricia Briggs’ Mercy Thomas and related Alpha Omega series? I'm afraid not. I recall seeing them on the shelves at BAM and the cover art is certainly impressive. FYI, when I asked Google "Which authors are similiar to Patricia Briggs?" the top result was a list compiled by Goodreads, upon which (out of my list) Kim Harrison ranked closest to Briggs, while Faith Hunter ranked fifth. |
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Post by ripx187 on Sept 15, 2019 13:48:32 GMT -5
I may not have finished the return of the king & never reread it or the Hobbit. I preferred Dennis Mckiernan’s Mithgard series and other fantasy to LotR’s. But I may reread the Hobbit and the LotR after all. My favorite scene is after the destruction of the Ring, when the Hobbits are returning home. It is as soldiers that they return, and things are different. Sarumon has taken over the shire, and what once would have been a big problem is nothing to them; they just fix it. The hobbits in charge haven't any authority over them because they don't care. You see the effects of what they had become. They will never be the silly hobbits fussing over pointless hobbit stresses ever again. This is power. Sarumon's influence and his big plot of revenge against them just crumbled apart and it was fun to read this. It is deep stuff. |
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Post by raikenclw on Sept 16, 2019 2:07:36 GMT -5
I may not have finished the return of the king & never reread it or the Hobbit. I preferred Dennis Mckiernan’s Mithgard series and other fantasy to LotR’s. But I may reread the Hobbit and the LotR after all. My favorite scene is after the destruction of the Ring, when the Hobbits are returning home. It is as soldiers that they return, and things are different. Sarumon has taken over the shire, and what once would have been a big problem is nothing to them; they just fix it. The hobbits in charge haven't any authority over them because they don't care. You see the effects of what they had become. They will never be the silly hobbits fussing over pointless hobbit stresses ever again. This is power. Sarumon's influence and his big plot of revenge against them just crumbled apart and it was fun to read this. It is deep stuff. Have you read any of Glen Cook's Black Company books? Soldiering is just another [filthy, horrific, thankless] job, mighty sorcerers just another tactical problem, your companions are the only things which matter, all else is dross. Reviewer Steven Erickson commented about them thusly: "With the Black Company series Glen Cook single-handedly changed the face of fantasy—something a lot of people didn’t notice and maybe still don’t. He brought the story down to a human level, dispensing with the cliché archetypes of princes, kings, and evil sorcerers. Reading his stuff was like reading Vietnam War fiction on peyote." |
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Post by shimrod on Sept 20, 2019 8:25:33 GMT -5
Did Tolkien ever really claim that his books had nothing to do with his experiences in WWI? My recollection was that he specifically denied that the tales are *allegorical*, and specifically that they don't represent either World War. That Sauron is not meant to be seen as a stand-in for Kaiser Wilhem, The Ring is not a metaphor for The Bomb. That sort of thing. But it's obvious that Sam is similar to a batsman/servant soldier to a gentry officer. And the Hobbits leaving Hobbiton in their innocence are very like he and his friends, as they are returning, forever changed.
For my money LotR is tied with Jack Vance's Lyonesse for the best fantasy series I've ever read. One gives the epic quest, the other is much more picaresque and humorous, but also darker in some ways, with more adult themes. And of course their dialogue is utterly different but beautiful and evocative in both cases. I've re-read both more times than I can recall.
I did find that Christopher Tolkien did a beautiful job with The Children of Hurin, which successfully takes this tale from the Silmarillion to the level of a Greek tragedy. Truly epic and historic in feel, and with the best/scariest dragon I think I've yet seen in fiction.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Sept 20, 2019 14:32:33 GMT -5
I really do think that I should give LotR another solid try. By the way I loved Vance’s Lyonesse trilogy and I need to re-read it ASAP.
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Post by raikenclw on Sept 21, 2019 0:24:53 GMT -5
Currently listening to James Lee Burke's "A Stained White Radiance."
Man, this guy can really paint a scene with words!
His descriptions remind me strongly of part of the Referee advice in GDW's Space: 1889, which went something like (paraphrased from memory):
"Don't forget that you represent all five of the senses of your player's characters. But also don't forget that your players will tend to react immediately to any provided information which appears to represent a threat. So save describing whatever sense appears so until the end of your description, as they will stop listening and start trying to act as soon as those words leave your mouth."
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Post by mao on Sept 21, 2019 6:45:15 GMT -5
Currently listening to James Lee Burke's "A Stained White Radiance." Man, this guy can really paint a scene with words! His descriptions remind me strongly of part of the Referee advice in GDW's Space: 1889, which went something like (paraphrased from memory): "Don't forget that you represent all five of the senses of your player's characters. But also don't forget that your players will tend to react immediately to any provided information which appears to represent a threat. So save describing whatever sense appears so until the end of your description, as they will stop listening and start trying to act as soon as those words leave your mouth." Staying on top of all 5 senses is a worthy goal |
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I like short stories and all lengths up to the 1200 page tomes that some fantasy writers do these days. I like 99%+ of the books I read, I rarely pick one up that I do not like, but when I do I find it completely unreadable and put it back down and walk away.
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