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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 4, 2019 11:13:49 GMT -5
I was recently emailed some information about this topic by a friend and I found it interesting enough to share with all of you.
First the quote which reportedly comes from odd74, sorry I cannot link directly to the quote. Also sorry I do not know who the poster is, but that is just as well given what is said.
First here is what the OSR community says about itself
Ok with that bookkeeping out of the way here is the part that I would like to focus on
My first question is this, how does being "DIY and either gonzo or high-mortality or simpler." make it OSR in name only? Is the poster really saying that OSR is not "DIY" and is not allowed to have "gonzo" or "high-mortality" or be "simpler"?
I know everyone has there own defintion of OSR, but this is the first time I have heard of someone out and out declaring that "DIY" and "OSR" are mutually exclusive. How can it be called "Old School" and not support "DIY?"
I am curious to hear comments on this topic.
My second question is this, in what possible world does "new school, but edgy" equate in any way to "DIY and either gonzo or high-mortality or simpler?" Do not these things proclude it from being "new school" since a prime trait of "new school" it that something does not support in any way "DIY?" Further I have never heard of anything "new school" being described as "gonzo" or "high-mortality" or "simpler."
I am curious to hear comments on this topic.
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 5, 2019 11:57:50 GMT -5
I don't care what the OSR says or believes about itself, it is a brand name without a corporation behind it. This brand name's goal is to sell products. Thus, if you aren't selling than you are DIY, a market that is not a consumer of such things. What is new school? I have no idea. I think that I used to know what it was when 4th Edition of D&D was king, but I'm not so sure anymore. I suppose that it is a system which is designed to be tamper resistant and encourages the reliance on commercial products. The OP actually kind of reminds me of this wrestler from back in the day named Nick Bockwinkel. His whole schtick was that he pretended to be smarter than what he was by using these fancy words while cutting his promos, but most of the time he'd use them out of context and much of what he said didn't make sense. It's a classic trope now, but Nick was no doubt the best at it. I think that in this instance, the poster is pulling a Bockwinkel. This describes anything that you are doing but placed in a negative light. I'd say that it pretty much includes everything. I don't know what that even means, but I'm pretty sure that it doesn't mean anything. Perhaps he is doing some marketing of his own product or just wants to place himself upon some pedestal. The Table Top RPG scene has always been like that. D&D could convince you that its competitors were generic while it peddled generic products. Designers have egos that often aren't all that well deserved, and I think that they know it so they tend to overcompensate and say things that encourage others to repeat how amazing they are. Statements like this are more often than not used to stir the pot but little else. At least Nick Bockwinkle let us watch him get what he had coming once in a while. The internet is such an unrewarding place sometimes  |
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Post by El Borak on Jul 5, 2019 13:40:50 GMT -5
Woah! That is some messed up $&%@! But I agree that anything that does not support DIY is not old school. And anything that does not support your personal taste as a DM is not old school either IMO. So this "guy," whoever he is, apparently thinks that the OSR is about round pegs in round holes. I thought the OSR, whatever it is, was a lot less rigid than that. But what do I know!  What does that even mean? Maybe in light of the rest of the statement, it means new school, but PCs have a real risk of dying? What a novel idea!  |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jul 5, 2019 16:40:04 GMT -5
New School, but Edgy is Story gaming with dark content, some are posing as OSR because they are often rules-lite systems - like Sharp Swords & Sinister Spells or games that are vaguely D&D but adopt 5e-isms like Advantage & Death Saves.
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Post by El Borak on Jul 12, 2019 9:47:30 GMT -5
New School, but Edgy is Story gaming with dark content, some are posing as OSR because they are often rules-lite systems - like Sharp Swords & Sinister Spells or games that are vaguely D&D but adopt 5e-isms like Advantage & Death Saves. I can't keep up with all these new terms for games and what they mean. The reddit poster seems to have some things confused though. It is getting so no one can discuss some of these things because of a complete lack of agreement on what the terms mean. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jul 12, 2019 13:43:53 GMT -5
I agree, I've gotten to the point that I don't bother looking into them and I don't bother with Reddit or general chat groups on FB as much of it is ads or in the non-OD&D groups general RPG based groups annoy me by the social justice posters in them.
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 12, 2019 20:32:43 GMT -5
I agree, I've gotten to the point that I don't bother looking into them and I don't bother with Reddit or general chat groups on FB as much of it is ads or in the non-OD&D groups general RPG based groups annoy me by the social justice posters in them. Ugg I hate social justice posters. Why does fantasy have to be so politically correct? What is so wrong with feeling uncomfortable sometimes? Whatever happened to just enjoying a devious DM? That used to be a good thing! A good story teller knows how to toe the line, but I don't think that those guys even know what the line is. I've only got a few seconds to put a picture into somebodies mind, stereo-types can make quick work of that. It is a first impression. If the players wish to delve deeper, they can. If you are offended by something that my characters say or do, then do something about it. |
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Post by mao on Jul 14, 2019 15:07:24 GMT -5
I agree, I've gotten to the point that I don't bother looking into them and I don't bother with Reddit or general chat groups on FB as much of it is ads or in the non-OD&D groups general RPG based groups annoy me by the social justice posters in them. Ugg I hate social justice posters. Why does fantasy have to be so politically correct? What is so wrong with feeling uncomfortable sometimes? Whatever happened to just enjoying a devious DM? That used to be a good thing! A good story teller knows how to toe the line, but I don't think that those guys even know what the line is. I've only got a few seconds to put a picture into somebodies mind, stereo-types can make quick work of that. It is a first impression. If the players wish to delve deeper, they can. If you are offended by something that my characters say or do, then do something about it. I third this thought! |
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Post by El Borak on Jul 16, 2019 15:25:53 GMT -5
Go look at the original versions of fairy tales before they were sanitized. These were the stories that kids once listened to as they grew up with nothing dumbed down. Once upon a time, parents and grandparents told their kids fantasy stories about the real world, warts and all. It was part of growing up and being ready to face anything. Now it is all trying to make everything sweetness and light and bubble-wrapped, which is deceitful.
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Post by shimrod on Sept 20, 2019 7:28:18 GMT -5
TPD, the person you're quoting isn't saying that OSR isn't DIY and high mortality; he's saying the opposite. He's opining that certain games which use or get labeled with the term OSR aren't really old-school like OD&D or other classic games, but get lumped in with them because they SHARE those qualities with original games.
The OSR subreddit has a mix of true old school and some stuff which overlaps with it in philosophy and/or aesthetic.
I'm on the fence about "gonzo"; I feel like that was common in a lot of old school games (Arduin, some Blackmoor, Tunnels & Trolls), but not all of them. You do see some gonzo stuff in the OSR scene (like, say, Anomalous Subsurface Environment, Encounter Critical, Mutant Future, or Carcosa) and I guess the old-school scene is generally more welcoming of gonzo than new-school games. The aesthetic for, say, 5E D&D is all about a "classic" high fantasy world, less about being open to weird science, ray guns, mutants and robots. Not to say you can't put that stuff in your 5E game, but the old-school tends to be more open to it, I think.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Sept 20, 2019 17:19:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the explanation, it was not very clear the way it was worded.
Some people say that OD&D implies a post-apocalyptic world and to me that implies at least some gonzo elements. I mix in sword & sorcery, the pulps and all kinds of fantasy.
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Post by shimrod on Sept 23, 2019 9:53:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I usually see one of two takes on that. Either post-apocalyptic in the sense of The Dying Earth or the Book of the New Sun, where there used to be a high-tech society but that fell utterly and current civilization is lower-tech/quasi-medieval, or post-apoc in a broader sense where there used to be one or more powerful civilizations which fell and have left lots of ruins, but there wasn't necessarily a discrete apocalyptic event (no nuclear war or anything like that), but the empire(s) fell and civilization is still recovering. The latter is more like historical medieval Europe in relation to the fall of Rome. Greyhawk is kind of a mix of those, right? The Suel & Baklunish war did have a pair of magical apocalyptic events (the Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colorless Fire, IIRC?), but I always had a sense that Gary's Greyhawk was aiming for a more historic kind of medievalism, and that rayguns and robots wouldn't really fit into the world as he described it (for example, in his Gord novels). Of course, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks is set in the Duchy of Geoff, so that's a rather large exception!  Dave's game as I've read about it did seem more open and wild and gonzo. Not as concerned with Gary's particular sense of "naturalism". |
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Post by shimrod on May 6, 2022 11:42:37 GMT -5
I'm on the fence about "gonzo"; I feel like that was common in a lot of old school games (Arduin, some Blackmoor, Tunnels & Trolls), but not all of them. You do see some gonzo stuff in the OSR scene (like, say, Anomalous Subsurface Environment, Encounter Critical, Mutant Future, or Carcosa) and I guess the old-school scene is generally more welcoming of gonzo than new-school games. The aesthetic for, say, 5E D&D is all about a "classic" high fantasy world, less about being open to weird science, ray guns, mutants and robots. Not to say you can't put that stuff in your 5E game, but the old-school tends to be more open to it, I think. Piggybacking off this comment from a couple of years ago, I've since encountered some gonzo in my online gaming during the pandemic. In the OD&D Greyhawk game I'm playing in, we've encountered an apparent WWII-era encampment of Wehrmacht behind a great locked metal door we found in the sewers under the city. And in a 5E game I've been playing run by one of my RL friends, which is a published WotC campaign, we've encountered a space ship, laser pistols and rifles! Whodathunkit? I guess gonzo is a little more prevalent than I thought. |
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Dave's game as I've read about it did seem more open and wild and gonzo. Not as concerned with Gary's particular sense of "naturalism".