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Post by mao on Jan 5, 2021 9:09:15 GMT -5
And I'm glad-- I am grateful-- that this is a place where we can say both "D&D is built on some ugly ideas" and "D&D is my favorite game" and not be ostracized for it. Because I don't want to use D&D to promote my social justice ideology; I want to use my social justice ideology to make bigger, better D&D. the last thing , life, this forum, America needs is a real life philosophy of politics. But the cracks are already there. But I can't stress this enough, all views are allowed here
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Post by Shroompunk Warlord on Jan 5, 2021 16:27:24 GMT -5
Many around here believe that "basic human decency" has nothing to do with what is called "political correctness;" in fact, many of us believe that what we call "political correctness" is the complete opposite of "basic human decency." I don't intend to further the argument, but that's already included in the statement I made. If you replace "political correctness" with "basic human decency" and their statement stops making sense, then you've revealed someone who is using it as a means of social control. It's obviously not a cut I should have tried to make at all here, but it was intended to cut both ways. Many of us are of an age that when we look at OD&D we see the world of our childhoods and that is a comfortable place to be. We are playing a game with friends and are not concerned with any of these things, we just want to have fun. My childhood was not a good place. D&D was sometimes-- often enough-- a pleasant respite from that. But it was also too often not a pleasant respite and I sympathize deeply with people who point to parts of D&D that never hurt me, but I can see and understand how they hurt them. I don't have anything to say about people who just want to have their own fun in their own games, until they make statements in public about people "ruining D&D" by speaking out about those issues. We believe that everyone should be able to play D&D anyway they want at their table without any type of criticism or censorship. "No Censorship" is where I 100% agree with you, as the Hill I Will Die On. No Criticism? I think I agree with the ethos of this forum that people don't deserve to be hated, insulted, or condemned for how they run their home games... but I also don't think this forum agrees with itself about "no criticism". If we leave the big moral issues aside, and we're just talking about playstyles, we use the term "railroad" as a pejorative for linear plots and illusionism; it can be performed politely, but that's definitely a criticism. I would bet there are similar criticisms of game systems that have the wrong balance between player skill and character skill. To dip back into the moral issues, I'll bet a lot of people have strong opinions about gender bonuses/penalties for human characters-- like Gygax introduced in AD&D and Cook removed in 2nd Edition. I'm not trying to run up on this forum screaming "burn the witch!", and I don't want to be the excuse anyone else uses for it. I just think pointing out "That makes me uncomfortable" or "That's going to make other people uncomfortable" are reasonable and useful feedback, even for 100% private home games, the same as "the players need more choices here" and "those monsters are too tough/too weak for what you're doing with them". To claim that these statements are unhelpful is to assume that the author is making people uncomfortable on purpose, and doesn't want to avoid it. we are on the whole in favor of free speech and freedom of thought. I think that's what I'm doing here, too. I just think doing an in-game racism, criticizing an in-game racism, and justifying/denying an in-game racism should be on the same level of free speech, within the boundaries of safety and civility and propriety already established here. I'm not saying that anyone should be allowed to say... what I already said in this thread. I was out of line, and I apologize. I also built this place so that those who do not think " D&D is built on some ugly ideas" had a place where they would not be ostracized for it either. IMO both views are acceptable here and I believe that peaceful co-existence for both views is possible, because we are here to promote gaming, not ideologies. That's the answer I was hoping for. If you're trying to build a more inclusive fandom, it doesn't make sense to try to exclude people from it; the only thing that makes sense, from any apolitical perspective, is to be welcoming and constructive and to give good faith advice under the assumption that designers are making good faith efforts to make the best games they can.
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Post by Shroompunk Warlord on Jan 5, 2021 16:30:51 GMT -5
Please pm me, I am curious about what you think these things are. Probably not a good open forum topic, but I am interested in your thoughts. I Think it would make a great topic. Tell you what, I'll send boarspear the PM and I'll CC you in on it-- if you think it would make a good topic for discussion, I hereby give you permision to either copy-paste my statement or paraphrase my statement in your own words.
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Post by Shroompunk Warlord on Jan 5, 2021 16:49:42 GMT -5
New School D&D has removed... Just so you know around here Old School and New School are styles of play, New School refers to a play style that is scripted and railroaded with little place for player initiative. Old School must have freedom of player choice on what the players choose to do, where they choose to go and all directions that can be chosen, MUST lead to different encounters and situations. If the referee moves an encounter so that no matter what the players do, the exact same encounter will always take place, then you have a railroad.
"Old School" for Life, then. As a Dungeon Master, my style is that I do not even have plots-- I have a script of events that will unfold as... well, scripted unless/until the PCs' actions disrupt them. And then I rewrite the script between sessions based on my (projected) consequences of the PCs' actions. I have rules for continuing a campaign after PCs have destroyed the campaign world, that I've never actually needed, just so that players will read them and realize that I expect them to bend my setting over their knee and spank it.
I hate how the official settings have all turned into wax museums that player characters are expected to periodically save but never change.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 5, 2021 21:40:12 GMT -5
Just so you know around here Old School and New School are styles of play, New School refers to a play style that is scripted and railroaded with little place for player initiative. Old School must have freedom of player choice on what the players choose to do, where they choose to go and all directions that can be chosen, MUST lead to different encounters and situations. If the referee moves an encounter so that no matter what the players do, the exact same encounter will always take place, then you have a railroad. I am the Grand King of railroading, love it! we could not be more opposites when it comes to this subject.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 5, 2021 21:40:58 GMT -5
Please pm me, I am curious about what you think these things are. Probably not a good open forum topic, but I am interested in your thoughts. I Think it would make a great topic. Possibly
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 5, 2021 22:32:41 GMT -5
Many of us are of an age that when we look at OD&D we see the world of our childhoods and that is a comfortable place to be. We are playing a game with friends and are not concerned with any of these things, we just want to have fun. My childhood was not a good place. D&D was sometimes-- often enough-- a pleasant respite from that. But it was also too often not a pleasant respite and I sympathize deeply with people who point to parts of D&D that never hurt me, but I can see and understand how they hurt them. I don't have anything to say about people who just want to have their own fun in their own games, until they make statements in public about people "ruining D&D" by speaking out about those issues. I was 19 when I first played OD&D, I have no idea what it would have been like to play as a child. For myself, it is incomprehensible that anything in OD&D could ever hurt anyone. I will accept that it is so for some, I just have no common ground for understanding it. If that is your experience, I am sorry and you have my sympathy. Empathy is a work in progress. All of my hurts come from real life and there are plenty of them, but I have never found any of those things, well people, to be part of my OD&D. I think I agree with the ethos of this forum that people don't deserve to be hated, insulted, or condemned for how they run their home games... but I also don't think this forum agrees with itself about "no criticism". If we leave the big moral issues aside, and we're just talking about playstyles, we use the term "railroad" as a pejorative for linear plots and illusionism; it can be performed politely, but that's definitely a criticism. I would bet there are similar criticisms of game systems that have the wrong balance between player skill and character skill. To dip back into the moral issues, I'll bet a lot of people have strong opinions about gender bonuses/penalties for human characters-- like Gygax introduced in AD&D and Cook removed in 2nd Edition. Much of what you mention was never a part of OD&D; for instance, there were no gender bonuses/penalties for human characters. People want to say AD&D is just OD&D plus Supplements, but in some very fundamental ways that is just not true. I started out with a 50/50 male/female group for 4 years of college and the subject never came up once. Our women alternated between fighters and mages and were ruthless as either. Given a choice I would always play with a mixed group. I have also played with a 50/50 black/white group and if there was anything they were uncomfortable with it was beyond my ability to discern it. My face to face games are pretty PG and a lot of laughter takes place. As for the playstyles, this forum is for Old School OD&D and other Old School games, as such "linear plots" that have pre-determined outcomes that players have zero ability to affect are not Old School. The module B-2 Keep on the Borderlands I have seen and it is the only example I can point to of a module that is Old School, the others that I have looked at are not Old School regardless of the love that most players of my age have for them and swear by them. I have no idea what you mean by "illusionism." I am not telling anyone not to use modules, they just do not interest me for play. I have found ideas here and there which can be ported into an open game. I also built this place so that those who do not think " D&D is built on some ugly ideas" had a place where they would not be ostracized for it either. IMO both views are acceptable here and I believe that peaceful co-existence for both views is possible, because we are here to promote gaming, not ideologies. That's the answer I was hoping for. If you're trying to build a more inclusive fandom, it doesn't make sense to try to exclude people from it; the only thing that makes sense, from any apolitical perspective, is to be welcoming and constructive and to give good faith advice under the assumption that designers are making good faith efforts to make the best games they can. I often wonder what people mean by "building inclusivity." The game from the beginning was inclusive in practice regardless of anything anyone with TSR said or did. The inclusivity IMO was baked into the game and these days it is a matter of (for some) returning to the beginning, not building something that did not exist previously. Any child can play D&D. The main things that disqualify adults are 1. Being unpleasant and disagreeable on purpose (i.e. not correctable) 2. Being deliberately disruptive (i.e. not correctable) 3. TMI that cannot be stopped (i.e. not correctable) 4. Insufficient imagination that prevents a good faith effort to play 5. complete lack of a sense of humor
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 5, 2021 22:48:30 GMT -5
Just so you know around here Old School and New School are styles of play, New School refers to a play style that is scripted and railroaded with little place for player initiative. Old School must have freedom of player choice on what the players choose to do, where they choose to go and all directions that can be chosen, MUST lead to different encounters and situations. If the referee moves an encounter so that no matter what the players do, the exact same encounter will always take place, then you have a railroad.
"Old School" for Life, then. As a Dungeon Master, my style is that I do not even have plots-- I have a script of events that will unfold as... well, scripted unless/until the PCs' actions disrupt them. And then I rewrite the script between sessions based on my (projected) consequences of the PCs' actions. I have rules for continuing a campaign after PCs have destroyed the campaign world, that I've never actually needed, just so that players will read them and realize that I expect them to bend my setting over their knee and spank it.
I hate how the official settings have all turned into wax museums that player characters are expected to periodically save but never change.
Now for my play by post I have a map for the immediate areas and outside of that it will be created in toto as we play. In my face to face games, I start them as a complete blank slate, I generally create everything on the fly in real time, I may have a few ideas jotted down, but I draw the map and create all denizens, magic items, etc on the fly as we play, that is when my ideas flow freely - in real time. I have no script of any kind. The toughest thing about the pbp is coming up with all the things I normally do in the flow of the moment. It is impossible to destroy my campaign world, because it grows organically as the players and the ref interact. Once an area is built, they could go back and "mess it up", but that would not bother me in the slightest and once players get a taste of the ever changing new, I have never had them do that.. My greatest joy in the pbp will be when they go completely off the map into unexplored territory or when they go into a dungeon. In both cases, I get to discover it as something brand new that just sprang into existence.
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Post by Shroompunk Warlord on Jan 6, 2021 2:34:02 GMT -5
For myself, it is incomprehensible that anything in OD&D could ever hurt anyone. Well, point blank, I will tell anyone who asks that Classic D&D is better than AD&D in almost every way they are different, but I am only very recently of that opinion and I can't tell you that anything that is obviously suspect in AD&D was as bad in OD&D before 1980. After 1980, there was a lot of crossing the streams and things that were never part of OD&D became a part of Classic D&D. And Classic D&D... eventually... developed some real cankers. If that is your experience, I am sorry and you have my sympathy. Empathy is a work in progress. All of my hurts come from real life and there are plenty of them, but I have never found any of those things, well people, to be part of my OD&D. Tell you the truth, there are a lot of things I didn't notice as a kid. When it comes down to it, twenty years or twenty-five years ago, I would have been entirely on your side of the argument and far less nice about it than you are. When I was young, the things that hurt me were my first DM, my stepfather, having a monster sexually assault my (male) PC because I cast the Druid charm person or animal spell on it. Other than that, his games were pretty... freewheeling and anything goes, and I really liked playing weird races in them, and for the next ten years of my life, any character I tried to play from outside the PHB discovered that every town he ever encountered was the town from Blazing Saddles. Because "realism". People want to say AD&D is just OD&D plus Supplements, but in some very fundamental ways that is just not true. C'mon, man, I just got done apologizing for starting this slapfight and you're trying to get me to pop off at Saint Gary?
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 6, 2021 5:33:23 GMT -5
Well, point blank, I will tell anyone who asks that Classic D&D is better than AD&D in almost every way they are different, but I am only very recently of that opinion and I can't tell you that anything that is obviously suspect in AD&D was as bad in OD&D before 1980. After 1980, there was a lot of crossing the streams and things that were never part of OD&D became a part of Classic D&D. And Classic D&D... eventually... developed some real cankers. I really can't speak to BECMI or Rules Cycolpedia as I have never looked at them in depth, I have copies but have never played them. My game starts with my tweak of the three 1974 books and everything in my campaign that dates to any time after 1974 are things that I have chosen and intentionally added. No other document has been imported whole cloth or untweaked. Tell you the truth, there are a lot of things I didn't notice as a kid. When it comes down to it, twenty years or twenty-five years ago, I would have been entirely on your side of the argument and far less nice about it than you are. When I was young, the things that hurt me were my first DM, my stepfather, having a monster sexually assault my (male) PC because I cast the Druid charm person or animal spell on it. Other than that, his games were pretty... freewheeling and anything goes, and I really liked playing weird races in them, and for the next ten years of my life, any character I tried to play from outside the PHB discovered that every town he ever encountered was the town from Blazing Saddles. Because "realism". As a referee I cannot imagine ever having any kind of sexual assault in a D&D game. We were college kids when I started and our game had zero sex in it. While I was a country boy, my friends were all city folk and very much were not prudes, but it never came into the game. My game is freewheeling and anything goes, but my anything goes is still pretty PG. I enjoyed Blazing Saddles, still do, a great example of why censorship is evil, but I would never build a game around it. It takes skill to pull that off and I would never try that. People want to say AD&D is just OD&D plus Supplements, but in some very fundamental ways that is just not true. C'mon, man, I just got done apologizing for starting this slapfight and you're trying to get me to pop off at Saint Gary? Who is Saint Gary? I can point you to places that worship Saint Gary, but this is not one of them. We also do not worship any other Saints here. What I do is give credit where credit is due and I don't give credit where it is not due. That is main thing that places me at odds with those who worship Saints.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 17, 2021 21:48:01 GMT -5
Welcome to Fantasy King, tell us about your D&D, what do you go for?
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Post by Death Even XIII on Jan 21, 2021 0:36:46 GMT -5
DeathevenXIII at your service, gents and ladies.
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Post by Red Virtuoso on Jan 21, 2021 1:26:04 GMT -5
Red Virtuoso always ready for a drink and a cigar and a game.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 21, 2021 1:40:01 GMT -5
DeathevenXIII at your service, gents and ladies. Welcome to The Ruins Death Even XIII! Come on in and make yourself at home.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 21, 2021 1:42:34 GMT -5
Red Virtuoso always ready for a drink and a cigar and a game. Welcome to The Ruins Red Virtuoso, plenty of hot coals to light that cigar, come on in. We are well supplied with beer and ale, but we could likely scrounge up something a might bit stronger.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 21, 2021 2:28:34 GMT -5
DeathevenXIII at your service, gents and ladies. Welcome to the forum Death Even XIII, how did you find us? Great to have you aboard.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 21, 2021 2:29:32 GMT -5
Red Virtuoso always ready for a drink and a cigar and a game. Welcome aboard Red Virtuoso, a man after my own heart.
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Post by boarspear on Jan 21, 2021 2:40:53 GMT -5
A hearty welcome to our new members.
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Post by Fantasy King on Jan 21, 2021 2:55:32 GMT -5
Welcome to Fantasy King , tell us about your D&D, what do you go for? OD&D with a bit o'darkness and grit to it.
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Post by Fantasy King on Jan 21, 2021 2:56:00 GMT -5
I see we have some more new members, awesome.
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Post by River Man on Jan 21, 2021 3:28:36 GMT -5
This looks like a well used thread, from its size I assume I am supposed to say Howdy, so Howdy! Glad to be here.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 21, 2021 3:39:56 GMT -5
This looks like a well used thread, from its size I assume I am supposed to say Howdy, so Howdy! Glad to be here. Howdy to you too! River Man, come on in and join the fun!
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Post by mao on Jan 21, 2021 6:31:55 GMT -5
Welcome to all! Tell me a story.
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Post by raikenclw on Jan 22, 2021 0:20:24 GMT -5
Welcome, everyone!
Just in case you missed it, our Perilous Dreamer's new OD&D PbP is still in the party-forming stage. So there is still time to secure a place of your own.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 24, 2021 15:33:37 GMT -5
Welcome to The Ruins River Man, I see you are posting as are other new members, great to see.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 24, 2021 15:58:26 GMT -5
Welcome to Fantasy King , tell us about your D&D, what do you go for? OD&D with a bit o'darkness and grit to it. Yeah, to me that says OD&D, not super dark, but with some darkness.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 24, 2021 15:59:43 GMT -5
Welcome to The Ruins River Man , I see you are posting as are other new members, great to see. Welcome River Man and anyone that I missed, great to have you here.
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Post by River Man on Jan 29, 2021 20:46:14 GMT -5
Thank you to everyone for the great welcome!
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Post by The Bloody Nine on Jan 29, 2021 21:45:03 GMT -5
Welcome to all the new members since I last logged in. Great to have you all here and I see a lot of you are posting which is very welcome.
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Post by Ronald Oliver on Jan 29, 2021 23:31:59 GMT -5
Hi folks, longtime lurker, decided it is time to join.
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