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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 26, 2018 14:38:46 GMT -5
I read a blog post discussing the post I'll be linking to shortly. This is NOT meant to spur a political discussion here but serve as a heads up about toxic ideas now becoming present not only in RPGs but in other geek oriented hobbies like video games & comics. I do not like my hobbies to be politicalized by any ideology. I don't know what world this person lives in but this poster has a VERY broad definition of what Fascism is and is basically condemning much of the older RPG fanbase, especially that of D&D. The poster goes on to talk out both sides of the mouth on the "role of violence" - OMG! My head hurt reading it as it is so full of stupid my brain couldn't take it. Again this is not to spur a political discussion but to bring a post to like I think this forum should be aware of. Admin Pete can delete it if he feels warranted. |
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Post by ripx187 on Oct 26, 2018 16:59:45 GMT -5
LOL How in the world did you find THAT hot mess?
I would love to play that dudes game, but I doubt that he actually has one. The only people who dictate how the game is played are the folks that show up at the session, all too often I see folks trying to reverse this process, and then blame whatever when the game fails. Fascists, I wonder who he is referring to? I assume that he is contributing to the divide which was inspired by the none stop dope show which we are all expected to participate in? A victim of programming. I think that there is a Nazi-like agenda at play in our nation, however, just like the last time that it reared its ugly head, we deal with that when it happens. In real life, disobeying fascist governments requires bravery not words on a blog or sitting around a table rolling dice.
This is a political problem. These are scary times! We study game theory, an element that, for the most part, was systematically removed by modern products. We can't stop the machine, but we can identify when we are being manipulated and we can respond appropriately to protect our families to the best of our humble abilities. Beware the divide, it is a ploy to distract you from what is really going on.
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Post by bravewolf on Oct 26, 2018 17:43:09 GMT -5
Where is the link?
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 26, 2018 18:11:29 GMT -5
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Post by bravewolf on Oct 26, 2018 18:15:11 GMT -5
Thanks! I had wondered whether it was the post on the Goat Song blog but the name of it had slipped my mind >< Much obliged, sir! |
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Post by ripx187 on Oct 26, 2018 19:20:06 GMT -5
Can individuals even be fascists? People forget things so quickly. In the area of the United States that I am from, prior to WW1 the dominant language wasn't English, it was German. Our local culture was, for the most part, forcibly erased. Sure, my Grandparents spoke it, and the church didn't convert to English until 1973, but our holidays and heritage had to be hidden out of shame and fear of arrest, even though none of us were Nazis, we came here for a better life and believed in this country. To this day the only German festival that we can publicly participate in is Octoberfest, and that is just because American's love to drink. Fascists, I believe, is what you call other people. That whole THEM vs. US mentality.
Back in Germany, the Nazi Party took the people's heritage and identities away as well, and replaced it with an Industrial Military Complex. They said amazing stuff to get public support. They did nasty things and blamed it on "THEM". They turned the country against itself so that they could emerge as the Good Guys. This is a political machine. This is Gaming Theory in motion. Nothing has changed, even the language is the same. Much of the truth of what happened, and still is, is just more propaganda. How could those evil Germans just sit there while all that stuff was going on? Look around folks, the answers are all around you if you have the courage to look.
To fight the machine, we have to study it, and D&D can be used to do just that, but we have to use it the opposite way of how this guy is suggesting. This isn't a war between Us vs. Them, this is a war to control our minds and our souls. It always has been. We as a common people, as a political system, are doomed; however, we as individuals are not. Not if we know what we are looking at and can resist it.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Oct 26, 2018 19:57:10 GMT -5
There's a lot of crazy things that are going on in the current U.S political climate. Hopefully it will come to a boil and go away soon. I pretty much attempt to stay away from blogs and forums. People watering down and trying to redefine nazi and racism. Without getting too political myself as I'm mostly A-political here's an interesting read. Again delete if it's too political. I mostly stay away from political topics but those here seem to be more even tempered. The article is long but the video sums up the experiment they did.. Now back to gaming topics only for me! areomagazine.com/2018/10/02/academic-grievance-studies-and-the-corruption-of-scholarship/ |
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Post by El Borak on Oct 26, 2018 20:40:06 GMT -5
Quite interesting! Thanks for keeping this on track.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Oct 27, 2018 4:40:10 GMT -5
When did the words "fascism" and "Nazi" get redefined? "Fascism" was a term for "government-controlled" and was seen as a good thing by the Progressive movement of the first half of the 20th century - indeed, Mussollini was touted as a hero by the dominant American leaders before entry into WW2. "Nazi" was and is socialism taken to its logical ends - the German shortened version of the name "National Socialist Party."
Indeed, Santayana is still correct.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Oct 27, 2018 4:52:32 GMT -5
Arneson's invention offers us an opportunity to "wargame" possible futures with greater inputs of societal and individual wild cards than the usual "rational planning" than traditional methods - including wargaming which, under political leaders, is tainted by too many presuppositions. It wasn't until rolegames that it became historically evident that progressivism/socialism is a throwback to the previously most successful governments of feudalism, where the "better," "smarter," "more educated" nobles took care of and made the decisions for the deplorable masses.
We owe Arneson for much more than a game genre. If he didn't purely create the rolegame he certainly developed it into a working form.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Oct 27, 2018 6:59:40 GMT -5
When did the words "fascism" and "Nazi" get redefined? "Fascism" was a term for "government-controlled" and was seen as a good thing by the Progressive movement of the first half of the 20th century - indeed, Mussollini was touted as a hero by the dominant American leaders before entry into WW2. "Nazi" was and is socialism taken to its logical ends - the German shortened version of the name "National Socialist Party." Indeed, Santayana is still correct. Today if you don't agree with far left politics (not all leftists are this way, but the very loud vocal minority) you're called a nazi or facist. It's a very small amount but if you frequent some RPG forums you'll see the term nazi being tossed about. |
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Post by Malcadon on Oct 27, 2018 10:40:57 GMT -5
I read a blog post discussing the post I'll be linking to shortly. This is NOT meant to spur a political discussion here but serve as a heads up about toxic ideas now becoming present not only in RPGs but in other geek oriented hobbies like video games & comics. I do not like my hobbies to be politicalized by any ideology. I don't know what world this person lives in but this poster has a VERY broad definition of what Fascism is and is basically condemning much of the older RPG fanbase, especially that of D&D. And yet, someone had to grab that hornet's nests and dangle it around while saying "I'm not trying to be political here." 
Oh well... I also like playing with hornet's nests, they make for great hacky sacks for crazy people. 
I read the blog post and found it funny and stupid. The idea of sanitizing fantasy of negative ideas. I treat fantasy as an emotional outlet with the expression of our dark sides as a necessary thing... What is known as "catharsis". When I run a game, as long as players have desires that do not disrupt the game, I'm OK with allowing them having their characters to push every common decency imaginable — I don't care and if they enjoy it, so be it. I cannot wrap me head around "emotional safety" as it through confronting terrible things that better helps up deal with things. The "D&D races is a racist concept" thing is not too off-base as D&D races are mostly crude stereotypes into themselves and its all too easy to make racial/cultural analogies out of them, but this is irreverent as they are not real people and players actively set their non-human characters apart form the typical stock Elf, Dwarf, etc. Playing a Dwarf as a drunken Scotsman with crude Scotsman accent is trite as all Gehenna, but actual Scotsmen would be more annoyed by how clichéd it is than get culturally offended. The vast majority of what it I disagree with, and largely indifferent to.
But in the end, is is pointless, the tropes and concepts found in D&D is way too entrench to ever be sanitize, and what he said is really fringe... Too fringe to take root. (If that is how he run his games and his players are OK with it than whatever. I know some players with some strange interests and fetishes, so that might be his.) Plus, this is not even the best example of toxic ideas and toxic fandom. There is already a prime example of this ( two in fact). It did not allow people to site on the sideline and made fools of both sides. There where absolutely no winners; only loosers! It was nothing short of a mud wrestling match in a rotten cesspit! |
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Post by Harry Wolf on Oct 28, 2018 19:42:48 GMT -5
The OP is on topic, if you run an open table in a public place, one of these people who want to politicize the game could sit down at your table. Better to know about it and be ready for it, than to be blindsided.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 28, 2018 23:58:59 GMT -5
The OP is on topic, if you run an open table in a public place, one of these people who want to politicize the game could sit down at your table. Better to know about it and be ready for it, than to be blindsided. This isn't the only offender, but it is the most blatant in trying to force a radical ideology upon RPGs. There are a number articles by certain politically biased sites like Kotaku & others of its ilk. It is also seeping into academic papers such as "Odalisques, Orientals & Orcs: Racism and Racial stereotyping in Dungeons & Dragons" by Chris Danielson. I have yet to fully read the paper but skimming through it I find it to be biased like much of the articles on the subject. Even on FB & G+ there are people calling others racist for insisting All Orcs are born evil & basically many of the accusations of the blog post have been mirrored in posts in groups/communities on both platform. People have even complained that using "race" and not species is racist. I left a FB group over the occasion post like this as I just want to have fun and not be lectured to when I log into FB and check out gaming groups. To be fair I don't like it when racialists do try to push their agendas in the hobby - Varg Vikernes a Odalist (Heathen) racialist who created the RPG Myfarog vlogs about his game and his pro-European and pro-pagan views. That being said, Myfarog is to my best knowledge not racial in and of itself - it is Eurocentric based but I haven't seen anything in it racist (but I have yet read it fully, so I can be wrong). A fan of fantasy roleplaying could enjoy Myfarog if they pick it up off the shelf and not even engage with Varg in anyway, but I wanted to be fair a speak out on the other side when they do it too. If Vox Day started publishing Alt-Right RPGs and articles promoting infusing Alt-Right beliefs in RPGs I'd condemn it too. So far Vox Day is only interested in infecting comics and video games but doesn't have much success in doing so. |
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Post by Malcadon on Oct 29, 2018 8:53:49 GMT -5
The OP is on topic, if you run an open table in a public place, one of these people who want to politicize the game could sit down at your table. Better to know about it and be ready for it, than to be blindsided. This isn't the only offender, but it is the most blatant in trying to force a radical ideology upon RPGs. There are a number articles by certain politically biased sites like Kotaku & others of its ilk. It is also seeping into academic papers such as "Odalisques, Orientals & Orcs: Racism and Racial stereotyping in Dungeons & Dragons" by Chris Danielson. I have yet to fully read the paper but skimming through it I find it to be biased like much of the articles on the subject. Even on FB & G+ there are people calling others racist for insisting All Orcs are born evil & basically many of the accusations of the blog post have been mirrored in posts in groups/communities on both platform. People have even complained that using "race" and not species is racist. I left a FB group over the occasion post like this as I just want to have fun and not be lectured to when I log into FB and check out gaming groups. To be fair I don't like it when racialists do try to push their agendas in the hobby - Varg Vikernes a Odalist (Heathen) racialist who created the RPG Myfarog vlogs about his game and his pro-European and pro-pagan views. That being said, Myfarog is to my best knowledge not racial in and of itself - it is Eurocentric based but I haven't seen anything in it racist (but I have yet read it fully, so I can be wrong). A fan of fantasy roleplaying could enjoy Myfarog if they pick it up off the shelf and not even engage with Varg in anyway, but I wanted to be fair a speak out on the other side when they do it too. If Vox Day started publishing Alt-Right RPGs and articles promoting infusing Alt-Right beliefs in RPGs I'd condemn it too. So far Vox Day is only interested in infecting comics and video games but doesn't have much success in doing so. Well, the internet is an open marketplace of ideas, so there will be people throwing radical ideology upon everything, including RPGs. In our "post modern" world, people are going to deconstruct and reconstruct old ideas, and get really meta with it, so connecting real-world racism and racial stereotyping with how humanoid races in fantasy RPGs are presented is inevitable. If you don't believe me, just dead-lift and read the 900+ page of unspeakable horror that is F.A.T.A.L. Elves are nothing but crass homophobic jokes; Dark Elves are one-note BDSM jokes; Orcs are every racist black-face stereotype to ever be; and so on and so forth. Like Varg's Myfrog game, F.A.T.A.L. wears its racism (and misogyny, and clouded view of history) on its sleeves. But the beauty of the "open marketplace of ideas" is that nothing is above ridicule, and anything that tries to be beyond reproach usually gets knocked down a peg. Just look at 4chan or Encyclopedia Dramatica (in the case of RPGs: d4chan).
Although, in the RPG industry, there is a glut of game books. The post-OGL era alone allows people to take a common, ready-made rule-system and use it as a framework for their own fantasy games and settings. As such, games and settings with a radical ideology will happen, likewise, more traditional games and settings with fresh and novel ideas will also appear. Much like the anime market of today, its a bit of a slog trying to find the gems within the mock, but its worth the effort. Over time, entertainment that is the most engaging and/or novel will be remembered while the boring stuff will fall into obscurity.
Are we still going to fight dehumanized Orclings, Goblinouds, whatever?
Yes.
Why?
In the end, Orcs and Goblins are just the dark reflections of humanity and fear of what humanity could become. Bereft of any relatability — honor, morality, civility, compassion, etc. — such human-like creatures can safely be dismissed like unfeeling robots or mindless zombies, and used as cannon-fodder to make the (otherwise Murder Hobo) characters seem more "heroic." We are not really fighting "the other" but subconsciously fighting ourselves.
Oh, and Theodore "[Pompous Dog Latin]" Beale and the Alt-Right tried to put their slimy tentacles into everything! He tried to corrupt the science fiction community (where he got his start), but he went above and beyond to burn bridges: He nuked it, dropped napalm and agent orange on the rubble, and nuked it some more! He is so hated by the sci-fi community not even the "Sad Puppies" bloc like him much. They lost a lot of face with the blowout of Gamergate... and Pizzagate. After what Alt-Right did to James Gunn — by the same nutjob that started Pizzagate — the Alt-Right in general are not much welcome among the comic book community right now, as it seems that people really wanted a third Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Alt-Right tried to get into the rap and hard rock music industry and all they had to show for it was a post-Kardashian Kanye West. The hip-hop community has no interest in the "plight" of whinny white people, and there is a long-standing animosity between the hard rock community (at least in the US) and nationalists. They even managed to get booted form 4chan — mind you, a forum of trolls with few rules — only to form a new community named by the most 13-year old boy they could find: 8chan ("8" as in "infinity", but on its side). For people obsessed with "miscegenation is going to kill the white race" and anything LGTBIQCSISUV, the types of lewd pics and videos they post on [figure-eight]chan... is... well... Maybe they get off of it... "Ironically"
They have the "The Midas Touch" of turning anything they get their hand on into raw sewage. I am so glad that those clowns are going the way of the Dodo bird.
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Post by ripx187 on Oct 29, 2018 15:54:26 GMT -5
Wow, Malcadon, that is a mouthful and deserves an Exalt. Folks have always projected their own ideas into entertainment and found dark paths to take. Black actors who earned their stripes on the vaudeville era and managed to take their comedic style to Holywood were judged by the public to be racists stereotypes and were no longer allowed to make a living. There used to be fun little places to go that were kind of like those history villages, but made light of the poverty-stricken deep south life-style of recently freed slaves. Now keep in mind that this was all designed by and employed black folks, but these were all shut down. I think that they are going after the hillbilly now, and I happen to be a hillbilly. There is a comfort in going to places like that. It is just light-hearted fun which pokes at a simpler time that really never was. It's a joke! And it employs and earns money to the class that is supposed to be injured by such stereotypical bigotry. I don't know about you, but I'd rather earn a living playing a fiddle and singing to white-folk than getting black lung down in the mines (which are now closed too). The consequences of people saving those who don't need to be saved are devastating. Instead of acknowledging that a culture exists (or did exist), it is destroyed and erased. |
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Post by El Borak on Oct 29, 2018 16:21:43 GMT -5
Malcadon I agree with ripx187 great post. It has a bunch of references in it that I am unfamiliar with, but seems it is just as well I don't get out much.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 2, 2018 22:03:30 GMT -5
This is stuff to use an 11 foot pole to shove it over a cliff and make your escape. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Nov 3, 2018 13:15:34 GMT -5
Lets air out some things - one Mike Cernovich isn't Alt-Right, he is a man's rights activists and admitted American Nationalist with a mixed race family (a no go among the Alt-Right in general). He is a conspiracy theorist and was pivotal in outing James Gunn. He is a nutter. Should James have been fired for 10 yo tweets? No, but I doubt that was all that caused his firing, but only he & Disney knows what truly prompted his firing.
Gamersgate wasn't an Alt-Right thing. Zoë Quinn was accused of cheating upon her boyfriend who in response accused him of being abusive - a he said she said, situation no one seems to have proof of if either accusation is true or not. There was an belief that she was using her affairs to garner positive coverage or potential support among game journos. Is this a fact? Who knows, but she has ridden the "Victim card" to get a comic writing gig, a book deal and another game dev project even though she hasn't finished her "Queer & Weird" live action dating sim game she kickstarted. I lack sympathy for her as she seems to be another radical activist like Anita Sarkeesian pushing their agenda via their platforms. Do they have a right to do so? Yes and I defend it but they are grown ups and can get criticized - social media is a battleground.
Twitter is toxic, as is much of social media. I've dealt with it, I've seen comic companies and creators attacked for publishing a humor book that only sin was being pro-Trump and for defending them I got targeted but they can't hurt me as they have no leverage & I am a very small fish in the vast ocean of the internet.
The thing is when I call something Alt-Right I use it for people who claim to be Alt-Right, too many people use it to tar conservatives, libertarians and centrist free speech activists. I even cringe when people use SJW too. It's become lazy, but I've been guilty of it as well. Like the Sad Puppies thing, it was a group of Conservative & Libertarian sci-fi and fantasy authors who believed they were getting shafted by the Hugo Awards in order to promoted left-of-center authors, they have also been tared with being Alt-Right but are not.
Things need to be put into context. This forum's membership is or was conservative leaning, I respect that and started this thread to let others know of the radical (in my view Cultural Marxist/Social Justice) agenda driving these biased articles and academic papers. These articles refer to the hobby's founders as racists and misogynists when they were not. They created a hobby that still largely appeals to white males, so of course at that time they assumed that only white males would be their target audience and that was true initially. I am pretty sure Gary gamed with women and POC players up until he died after he left TSR. By today's PC ideas they are still considered to be such things, but I believe this is slanderous. Most of these people grew and evolved in their views. We all have. In my mid-20s to mid-30s I was a very different person with very objectionable beliefs but I grew out of them eventually fell in love with a black woman. I am openly anti-racist and anti-Totalitarian in my views, but I am called Alt-Right, racist, Nazi and even SJW and race-traitor by some people. I am not well liked on either extreme.
The problem is the sins of the past are being used to destroy peoples lives and tar the hobby. It is wrong, it been happening to political appointees, to James Gunn and others - it could happen to me if I became successful and people on the radical left found out about my past, they would use it to try to destroy me. But in the end of the day I try not to push my politics upon others, especially via my hobbies. I even try to keep such posts out of my blogs unless like this thread OP - I thought it was needed. I love this Hobby, I hate seeing Gygax, Len and others maligned by people pushing an agenda. I'll not apologize for it or my beliefs here or elsewhere. If it wasn't for RPGs, especially D&D; comics and fantasy/Sci-Fi fiction I don't know where I'd be today.
This is why I am passionate about shining a light when ideologues from either political extreme try to push their ideologies upon the hobbies I love. I'll game with anyone as long as they are not an assholes and won't bring their politics and religion to my table. I game to have fun and escape from real world concerns like politics and religion, plain and simple.
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Post by Admin Pete on Nov 3, 2018 13:30:20 GMT -5
When people sit down at the game table, I (and most people) don't quiz them about their beliefs on a variety of topics. All we do is tell them what our game is about and if they are good with that, then lets game and have fun. If they are not into the way I (we) game, then so long and no hard feelings, go find a game that suits how you want to play. But even though we may not be able to play rpgs together due to different play styles, we still may play Risk or Scrabble or cards or any number of other games together.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Nov 3, 2018 13:41:21 GMT -5
When people sit down at the game table, I (and most people) don't quiz them about their beliefs on a variety of topics. All we do is tell them what our game is about and if they are good with that, then lets game and have fun. If they are not into the way I (we) game, then so long and no hard feelings, go find a game that suits how you want to play. But even though we may not be able to play rpgs together due to different play styles, we still may play Risk or Scrabble or cards or any number of other games together. This is how I am, most of my family & friends are left-of-center and I love (in case of family) & respect (in case of friends & family) them immensely even though we disagree both politically and spiritually. We can sit down play Life, Monopoly, Dungeoneer or other board games or even video games or watch TV shows or films together and get a long famously. We just agree not to talk about politics or religion. I no longer play RPGs with my old gaming group (that included my brother for a time) because I want to run old school D&D not 5e or 3.5 D&D/Pathfinder as they preferred. If that wasn't the case I'd be still gaming with them to this day. But I prefer to be a Referee only now and only want to run OD&D, Delving Deeper or B/X D&D, if I find a group to run games for them only thing I'll require is that they want to play these games and have drama free fun. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Nov 4, 2018 0:45:47 GMT -5
I moved and locked this as it ran its course and might lead to overt political discussions & arguments.
Ebon.
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