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Post by mao on Aug 18, 2018 9:12:20 GMT -5
Ok my OD&D cred is week but I ran 1st ed for about 20-25 year, so that's my bonafides  . I love wizes always have but the early eds of D&D are woefully inadequate in spell selection, and Sleep is far too powerful (has been banned in my section of NJ since 1981) but I made many more spells available starting about 1990. Homemade, 3rd party, splat book, never met a spell I didn't like if it was new and shiny YMWV> Thoughts? |
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Post by simrion on Aug 18, 2018 10:59:44 GMT -5
I dunno I don't mind the Sleep spell as a DM, especially since low level MUs are "one hit wonders." Give's them an opportunity to shine early in the campaign and is useful in shortening combats with masses of low HD mooks. Considering their lack of armor and weapon selection I don't typically nerf their spells/spell selections. Also I feel the spell is evocative of the D&D "pulp" antecedents. Just my two coppers. We make great use of the Dragon Tree Spellbook in my campaigns, you want to talk about some overpowered low level spells, that bad boy is chock full of 'em!
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Post by True Black Raven on Aug 18, 2018 11:37:47 GMT -5
I like the sleep spell and do not feel that it is overpowered at all. I view it as a spell done right.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Aug 20, 2018 18:20:36 GMT -5
I also love the Sleep spell, but I like the idea of Magic-Users researching new spells to add depth to the spell selection of the setting. Taking inspiration from other editions & 3rd party sources is also good, though they will have to be converted to fit OD&D.
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Post by mao on Aug 21, 2018 9:05:20 GMT -5
I like the sleep spell and do not feel that it is overpowered at all. I view it as a spell done right. I fully expected to be in the minority here, however if you are not going to replace it w something tasty, I totally agree it should stay.I just really hate the idea that if given an option they would always pick Sleep as any other choice is stupid(though read or detect magic might be campaign necessities) |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 21, 2018 9:39:59 GMT -5
I like the sleep spell and do not feel that it is overpowered at all. I view it as a spell done right. I fully expected to be in the minority here, however if you are not going to replace it w something tasty, I totally agree it should stay.I just really hate the idea that if given an option they would always pick Sleep as any other choice is stupid(though read or detect magic might be campaign necessities) But they don't always pick sleep in my experience. |
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Post by mao on Aug 21, 2018 9:42:35 GMT -5
I fully expected to be in the minority here, however if you are not going to replace it w something tasty, I totally agree it should stay.I just really hate the idea that if given an option they would always pick Sleep as any other choice is stupid(though read or detect magic might be campaign necessities) But they don't always pick sleep in my experience. That was a huge guess on my part, I banned it so long ago, I have no idea who is right but probably you. |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 21, 2018 9:47:02 GMT -5
But they don't always pick sleep in my experience. That was a huge guess on my part, I banned it so long ago, I have no idea who is right but probably you. In my experience players of magic users and clerics pick their spells based on the situation. Magic-users do not always pick sleep and clerics do not always pick a heal spell. Of course as they go up in levels they have more options, since they can pick multiple spells. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Aug 21, 2018 20:04:51 GMT -5
I like the sleep spell and do not feel that it is overpowered at all. I view it as a spell done right. I fully expected to be in the minority here, however if you are not going to replace it w something tasty, I totally agree it should stay.I just really hate the idea that if given an option they would always pick Sleep as any other choice is stupid(though read or detect magic might be campaign necessities) , I love you man, but you (and your players) need to get out more. You say "any other choice is stupid" saying the Sleep spell is the only option. The original spell list for 1st levels are 1st Level Spells
1. Detect Magic
2. Hold Portal
3. Read Magic
4. Read Languages
5. Protection/Evil
6. Light
7. Charm Person
8. SleepMaybe the players think that because the ref doesn't provide opportunities where they need/can use the other spells. My players often take Hold Portal and Charm Person. Protection/Evil gets a lot of use and Light gets a lot of use. Just as one example, have you never been in a dungeon where you desperately wanted a door to stay closed? Yes, my friend Hold Portal is the answer, because spikes will fall out on there own. Another example, your cleric can't turn the vampire because has to be 6th level to even have a chance, Protection/Evil might just save your lives. BTW do you have garlic with you? A cross? Mallet and stakes? |
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Post by simrion on Aug 22, 2018 4:50:58 GMT -5
I fully expected to be in the minority here, however if you are not going to replace it w something tasty, I totally agree it should stay.I just really hate the idea that if given an option they would always pick Sleep as any other choice is stupid(though read or detect magic might be campaign necessities) , I love you man, but you (and your players) need to get out more. You say "any other choice is stupid" saying the Sleep spell is the only option. The original spell list for 1st levels are 1st Level Spells
1. Detect Magic
2. Hold Portal
3. Read Magic
4. Read Languages
5. Protection/Evil
6. Light
7. Charm Person
8. SleepMy players often take Hold Portal and Charm Person. Protection/Evil gets a lot of use and Light gets a lot of use. Anecdotal at best but reading some of the game related descriptions from early sources (such as Dragon or SR) implies DM's were pretty liberal with Player Character use of Charm Person and often had fairly powerful monsters aiding them because of that particular spell. |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 22, 2018 7:50:29 GMT -5
mao , I love you man, but you (and your players) need to get out more. You say "any other choice is stupid" saying the Sleep spell is the only option. The original spell list for 1st levels are 1st Level Spells
1. Detect Magic
2. Hold Portal
3. Read Magic
4. Read Languages
5. Protection/Evil
6. Light
7. Charm Person
8. SleepMy players often take Hold Portal and Charm Person. Protection/Evil gets a lot of use and Light gets a lot of use. Anecdotal at best but reading some of the game related descriptions from early sources (such as Dragon or SR) implies DM's were pretty liberal with Player Character use of Charm Person and often had fairly powerful monsters aiding them because of that particular spell. I have always allowed it to be used against humanoid monsters that are intelligent excluding Trolls, Undead, Giants and anything bigger or more powerful than that. Charm Monster was for everything else except undead. I did put in a spell called Charm Undead for the intelligent Undead. |
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Post by mao on Aug 22, 2018 8:47:59 GMT -5
I think ultimately this is one of the problems I see in OD&D, but my objections are much wider than this and it must be looked at (by me) to encompass my problems with it. I long for the simplicity of OD&D , I love a lot about Pathfinder, yet it is deeply flawed too.I am slowly coming to the realization that the only thing that will make me happy is to write a new clone.The gaming community so needs this, listen to this sentence w a HUGE drop of sarcasm. I have the time . I have the talent. And just maybe I might make a few bucks. Another factor in this is my love of low level play (1-7 but really 1- 5)
I am really going to think about this, but it goes against several of my long standing rules
1 Life does not need another clone, no way no how.
There is no money in writing for RPGs.
It is a waste of time comparing it to more useful endevours like an adventure for an existing game.
But I just waste my time writing little tid bits here so a major project could be what I do instead
I'm really going to think about this.
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Post by Warrior Twin Two on Aug 22, 2018 13:08:01 GMT -5
I still don't understand (after reading the thread) what you think the problem with OD&D is.
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Post by mao on Aug 22, 2018 16:06:12 GMT -5
I still don't understand (after reading the thread) what you think the problem with OD&D is. The short answer to that is : options, classes and spells mostly. If you read deeper into what I wrote on the "3d6" thread you can see a crude version of what classes would be to me. The more modern versions are far too complex. As I have said in the past, my heart is OD&D but my head is modern |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 22, 2018 16:10:51 GMT -5
I still don't understand (after reading the thread) what you think the problem with OD&D is. The short answer to that is : options, classes and spells mostly. If you read deeper into what I wrote on the "3d6" thread you can see a crude version of what classes would be to me. The more modern versions are far too complex. As I have said in the past, my heart is OD&D but my head is modern I can see one fix for it, but you probably would not like it.    |
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Post by mao on Aug 22, 2018 17:17:05 GMT -5
The short answer to that is : options, classes and spells mostly. If you read deeper into what I wrote on the "3d6" thread you can see a crude version of what classes would be to me. The more modern versions are far too complex. As I have said in the past, my heart is OD&D but my head is modern I can see one fix for it, but you probably would not like it. I dunno, I'm a pretty open minded guy. |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 22, 2018 18:48:55 GMT -5
I dunno, I'm a pretty open minded guy. If you used this idea I guess open-minded would be one way of looking at it. Although the headless horseman might be more apt. |
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Post by mao on Aug 23, 2018 5:50:37 GMT -5
I dunno, I'm a pretty open minded guy. If you used this idea I guess open-minded would be one way of looking at it. Although the headless horseman might be more apt. Ah |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Aug 23, 2018 10:11:06 GMT -5
If you used this idea I guess open-minded would be one way of looking at it. Although the headless horseman might be more apt. Ah  That was cute guys. |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 24, 2018 9:56:30 GMT -5
If you would rather play a magic-user with no access to spells, that could be arranged.
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Post by True Black Raven on Sept 17, 2018 17:31:48 GMT -5
I still don't understand (after reading the thread) what you think the problem with OD&D is. The short answer to that is : options, classes and spells mostly. If you read deeper into what I wrote on the "3d6" thread you can see a crude version of what classes would be to me. The more modern versions are far too complex. As I have said in the past, my heart is OD&D but my head is modern IMO mao, you just need to play in a face to face game with a real honest to goodness old school ref and your problems would disappear. Just approach the game as though it were you first time ever playing an RPG. |
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Post by mao on Sept 17, 2018 18:50:42 GMT -5
The short answer to that is : options, classes and spells mostly. If you read deeper into what I wrote on the "3d6" thread you can see a crude version of what classes would be to me. The more modern versions are far too complex. As I have said in the past, my heart is OD&D but my head is modern IMO mao , you just need to play in a face to face game with a real honest to goodness old school ref and your problems would disappear. Just approach the game as though it were you first time ever playing an RPG. You could be right but I'll prob never find out because I started my gaming career w one of them and it didn't stick. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Sept 19, 2018 7:58:53 GMT -5
IMO mao , you just need to play in a face to face game with a real honest to goodness old school ref and your problems would disappear. Just approach the game as though it were you first time ever playing an RPG. You could be right but I'll prob never find out because I started my gaming career w one of them and it didn't stick. Maybe you just need a refresher course of treatment. |
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Post by hengest on Apr 3, 2022 22:24:22 GMT -5
Ok my OD&D cred is week but I ran 1st ed for about 20-25 year, so that's my bonafides  . I love wizes always have but the early eds of D&D are woefully inadequate in spell selection, and Sleep is far too powerful (has been banned in my section of NJ since 1981) but I made many more spells available starting about 1990. Homemade, 3rd party, splat book, never met a spell I didn't like if it was new and shiny YMWV> Thoughts? I'm inclined to just rewrite the spell list from scratch (have I done so? no) in accordance with my own notions, BUT I like what you do, everything and the kitchen sink. Let them go nuts and you go nuts too, I guess. |
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. I love wizes always have but the early eds of D&D are woefully inadequate in spell selection, and Sleep is far too powerful (has been banned in my section of NJ since 1981) but I made many more spells available starting about 1990. Homemade, 3rd party, splat book, never met a spell I didn't like if it was new and shiny YMWV>
That was cute guys.
. I love wizes always have but the early eds of D&D are woefully inadequate in spell selection, and Sleep is far too powerful (has been banned in my section of NJ since 1981) but I made many more spells available starting about 1990. Homemade, 3rd party, splat book, never met a spell I didn't like if it was new and shiny YMWV>