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Post by ripx187 on Jul 29, 2018 15:11:17 GMT -5
I am really enjoying the fast combat of OD&D but something is bugging me. Actually, it always has bugged me, and it used to be a bigger deal when I played AD&D. In AD&D I used the weapon proficiency system which meant that if you picked up a weapon type that you weren't familiar with it was more difficult to use. Today, I follow the original OD&D method of all weapons do 1d6 of damage. I understand that these weapons aren't treated historically, or with any accuracy, but there was one weapon in my world that means something.
The crossbow was the nightmare of its time. Training bowmen was a long process as these things take a lot of skill to operate accurately. Archers themselves are looked at and treated differently than normal troops. The bow was the high technology of its day, a weapon which had a long range, but it was expensive. You needed people who could maintain the weapons, and people who were skilled enough to fletch arrows. We treat them differently during the game as well, while we admit that we don't really know what is going on during sword fights or other melees which are fought face to face, we do have to be accountable for arrows. We track all of them and treat them as a resource. We follow rules which say that there is a range of attack and the further a target is the more difficult to hit it.
That said, if a cleric who is on the field losses or breaks his own weapon and sees an axe just laying there, he can pick up this axe and go crazy with it! Granted, he will have to beg for forgiveness for doing it, but he can do it. Same goes for a wizard. He may not be able to cast spells as well until the blisters heal, but anybody can grab an axe and become a threat.
Swords, those require skill. I mean, any idiot can pick one up and maybe get lucky, but to properly wield a sword took a lot of training. Probably more training than was required to use a bow! However, unlike the discarded axe or even a dropped sword, if a layman picks up a bow, he simply can't use it in any way except as a really crummy club, or an arrow as a makeshift shiv.
The crossbow changed all of that. Any idiot could pick up a crossbow and use it effectively, that was what it was designed for. This is an expensive weapon, and we can make it illegal for commoners (including adventurers) to own them. It was a bit slower to reload than a bow, but it required no skill to point at a short-range target and pull the trigger. The crossbow changed warfare. If you had enough of them stocked up, you could give them to anybody and they were just as much of a threat as a trained soldier until they ran out of bolts. If you get creative with this, you can hire some boobs to stand by and load them for you, and really ruin the enemies day!
The crossbow has never really been treated correctly in AD&D rules. The easy solution is to remove the entry. In my old AD&D campaigns, I modified them with yet another complex system and set of rules. I took them off of the proficiency system, if a character was proficient I pretty much doubled the damage done, and if they were specialized they became Sharpshooters.
Is anybody else reading this as fidgetty as me? Did you design any quick and easy rules to handle it, or just play it as written?
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Post by El Borak on Jul 29, 2018 16:23:11 GMT -5
You make some really good points. I never played AD&D much and I can't remember a player taking a crossbow now that I think of it. I would like to see how people alter the rules for crossbows. I would disagree with "anyone can use an axe". IIRC real world fighting with an axe was as much of an art as sword fighting.
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 29, 2018 17:15:19 GMT -5
Swords are really difficult weapons to use, where as weapons like flails are the opposite. There are forced and unnatural muscle movements associated with swords and many secrets to attain the skill which our characters can use them, a flail, there is no mystery. You pick it up and swing it at another person. You are correct about the axe, however anyone who has ever gone out and split wood is proficient enough with one to instantly become dangerous. It is a peasants weapon, along with pitchforks and crummy bent swords. A waraxe, it has a longer handle but a peasant can still pick one up and be dangerous with one. I think that much of this is factored in with the To-Hit tables. A fighter picking up a flail is going to be far more dangerous than a wizard or a commoner.
An axe is a multi-tool, it is common and has many functions; a sword has just one.
I guess that I do still group my weapons into catagories based on skill. I may want to think on this further if this is a path that I want to go down or not.
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Post by Q Man on Jul 29, 2018 20:44:31 GMT -5
Swords are really difficult weapons to use, where as weapons like flails are the opposite. There are forced and unnatural muscle movements associated with swords and many secrets to attain the skill which our characters can use them, a flail, there is no mystery. You pick it up and swing it at another person. You are correct about the axe, however anyone who has ever gone out and split wood is proficient enough with one to instantly become dangerous. It is a peasants weapon, along with pitchforks and crummy bent swords. A waraxe, it has a longer handle but a peasant can still pick one up and be dangerous with one. I think that much of this is factored in with the To-Hit tables. A fighter picking up a flail is going to be far more dangerous than a wizard or a commoner. An axe is a multi-tool, it is common and has many functions; a sword has just one. I guess that I do still group my weapons into catagories based on skill. I may want to think on this further if this is a path that I want to go down or not. What are the categories that you have and what falls in each category?
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Post by mao on Jul 30, 2018 6:23:10 GMT -5
I think any amount of special rules (not just for crosbowa) is against type for OD&D,. When game vrs reality bump heads , do you really want to add a layer of complexity?
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Post by El Borak on Jul 30, 2018 7:43:07 GMT -5
I think any amount of special rules (not just for crosbowa) is against type for OD&D,. When game vrs reality bump heads , do you really want to add a layer of complexity? I had the impression he was talking about a mechanical tweak more than adding complexity.
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Post by mao on Jul 30, 2018 7:50:35 GMT -5
I think any amount of special rules (not just for crosbowa) is against type for OD&D,. When game vrs reality bump heads , do you really want to add a layer of complexity? I had the impression he was talking about a mechanical tweak more than adding complexity. it's a slippery slope.....
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Post by El Borak on Jul 30, 2018 7:55:39 GMT -5
Looking at OD&D just the 3LBBs I could see a house rule stating that crossbows have a +1 to hit and do 1d6+2 damage. I think that would address the issue that ripx187 brings up. I think it accounts for both the easier aiming with an improved chance to hit and quarrels are bigger and heavier than arrows and should do more damage. I don't like the Greyhawk table for Attacker’s Weapon Type vs Defender’s Armor Class that does add complexity and really slows things down. If you want to got with Light Crossbow and Heavy Crossbow then I would do the following: Light Crossbow +2H and 1d6+1 damage and Heavy Crossbow +1H and 1d6+2 or maybe 1d6+3 damage.
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Post by El Borak on Jul 30, 2018 7:58:36 GMT -5
Looking at OD&D just the 3LBBs I could see a house rule stating that crossbows have a +1 to hit and do 1d6+2 damage. I think that would address the issue that ripx187 brings up. I think it accounts for both the easier aiming with an improved chance to hit and quarrels are bigger and heavier than arrows and should do more damage. I don't like the Greyhawk table for Attacker’s Weapon Type vs Defender’s Armor Class that does add complexity and really slows things down. If you want to got with Light Crossbow and Heavy Crossbow then I would do the following: Light Crossbow +2H and 1d6+1 damage and Heavy Crossbow +1H and 1d6+2 or maybe 1d6+3 damage. But then I would make them very expensive like I make plate armor very expensive so you have to adventure a while to be able to afford them.
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 30, 2018 13:20:44 GMT -5
I am being blasphemous but I'm thinking that X-bows treat targets as if they were AC10. This would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis, such as a target hiding behind a rock, or what not, but I don't think that it would break the game.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 30, 2018 17:32:32 GMT -5
I am being blasphemous but I'm thinking that X-bows treat targets as if they were AC10. This would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis, such as a target hiding behind a rock, or what not, but I don't think that it would break the game. Are crossbows that good against plate?
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jul 30, 2018 18:43:40 GMT -5
I am being blasphemous but I'm thinking that X-bows treat targets as if they were AC10. This would have to be judged on a case-by-case basis, such as a target hiding behind a rock, or what not, but I don't think that it would break the game. Are crossbows that good against plate? I just watched a video about crossbows vs. plate and crossbow bolts will do minimal damage if any unless you hit a gap. Here is the video.
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 30, 2018 19:07:09 GMT -5
I had assumed that it would have punched right through. This is some cool information! I don't think that I nor anybody else that I've ever gamed with actually used full-plate. It just seemed so impractical. Of all armor types, full plate causes some healthy debate. I've never even purchased field plate, nor sold any. Full and Half Plate armour is a noticeable gap in my medieval knowledge.
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 30, 2018 20:00:18 GMT -5
That is a fun video, Hexenritter Verlag. D&D vs. Real Life is impossible, especially in regards to combat. We just suspend our disbelief and accept fate. That said, I love watching stuff like this! I was surprised by the results of the tests, and just how difficult it was to reload. Keeping track of all of that stuff while trying not to get your head bashed in would be a chore, wouldn't it? Those are specific weapons too, separated by, what? A hundred years? In my fantasy head the user stepped on the strap and recocked the bow, but watching this it makes me wonder if it would have enough power to penetrate padded leather? The ones that must be cranked mechanically are much better. In game terms, it always took a full minute to reload, then fire. I'm not an expert on steel. I'm not even a hobbyist in that department, but I am curious. I know that our steel is much different than those used in the setting, but I'm not sure what that difference is. Is our steel lighter than theirs? I assume that to be the case. Their steel might have been harder than ours, or softer, I'm not really sure. I felt authentic by knowing that they used blued armour during battle, but that was back when I felt that I knew what I was talking about. This isn't the case anymore.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jul 30, 2018 20:09:25 GMT -5
That is a fun video, Hexenritter Verlag . D&D vs. Real Life is impossible, especially in regards to combat. We just suspend our disbelief and accept fate. That said, I love watching stuff like this! I was surprised by the results of the tests, and just how difficult it was to reload. Keeping track of all of that stuff while trying not to get your head bashed in would be a chore, wouldn't it? Those are specific weapons too, separated by, what? A hundred years? In my fantasy head the user stepped on the strap and recocked the bow, but watching this it makes me wonder if it would have enough power to penetrate padded leather? The ones that must be cranked mechanically are much better. In game terms, it always took a full minute to reload, then fire. I'm not an expert on steel. I'm not even a hobbyist in that department, but I am curious. I know that our steel is much different than those used in the setting, but I'm not sure what that difference is. Is our steel lighter than theirs? I assume that to be the case. Their steel might have been harder than ours, or softer, I'm not really sure. I felt authentic by knowing that they used blued armour during battle, but that was back when I felt that I knew what I was talking about. This isn't the case anymore. I agree about the bolded text especially & we shouldn't try but I figured I'd see what real life would say in order to give Darci an answer.
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 30, 2018 20:44:08 GMT -5
In my younger days I decided that it would be cool to create systems which showed wear and tear on weapons and armor. It ended how you would expect.
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