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Post by mormonyoyoman on Aug 4, 2018 10:11:48 GMT -5
[/smiley/smiley.png" class="smile"] Truly, without the Internet there would still be really wide variation in groups and a lot of the things that have happened with games of all kinds may not have. Think of where gaming would be if there were no computers and no video games.[/quote] For that, see Rob Kuntz's "Dave Arneson's True Genius."
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Post by mao on Aug 4, 2018 14:01:50 GMT -5
Coming here has helped open my eyes to what could be if we just went back to basics & built upon the foundation laid out by OD&D. All you have to do is look at what Hargrave did with Arduin & Sechi did with Talislanta and say to yourself, "I can do that too". My D&D need not look like Gary's Greyhawk, Arneson's Blackmoor, Greenwood's Forgotten Realms or any other published setting. I can take inspiration from Bode, Ploog, Russ Nicholson, Trampier, Battle chasers, Bouroughs, Science fiction, anime/manga & HP Lovecraft and create something outside the generic Tolkien-Vance pastiches out there now that speaks to me as a creative individual. Same with me. I am formulating a radical (for me!) idea - that a workable skirmish combat system is sufficient for a role-playing game. No other mechanics are necessary; some may be useful. I'm probably several steps behind the more profound thinkers hereabouts, though. I'll tell you a secret (lean in close) You pick any one of us and lf I looked real hard I could find a bunch of peeps w the opinion "This Sucks" .i also know that there are several of us that would give you ideas and feedback, so in short: GO for it
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Post by Mighty Darci on Aug 4, 2018 17:53:05 GMT -5
Same with me. I am formulating a radical (for me!) idea - that a workable skirmish combat system is sufficient for a role-playing game. No other mechanics are necessary; some may be useful. I'm probably several steps behind the more profound thinkers hereabouts, though. I'll tell you a secret (lean in close) You pick any one of us and lf I looked real hard I could find a bunch of peeps w the opinion "This Sucks" .i also know that there are several of us that would give you ideas and feedback, so in short: GO for it Hopefully none of the "this sucks" are hereabouts. randyb, show us you ideas.
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Post by El Borak on Aug 4, 2018 19:20:20 GMT -5
OK, I've heard 1976-1978 is the dividing line depending on the group and where they were located. Some groups never changed a thing. Our group played with whoever showed up, but play was always team play unless you were doing a solo adventure or two people went off by themselves, otherwise it was the group. Player against player was never something we did. I never got anyone into domain play so rivalries there would have been normal. IIRC I have heard though that the early people played all types of play from the beginning, wilderness, dungeon, city and domain all at the same time and didn't wait till high level for domain play as a separate thing.
That early? I thought maybe +/- a year or two from 1980, which barely hits your time range. Which reminds me of how varied the early hobby was, group-to-group. The Internet Era has ruined us. Yeah, at the other extreme I have heard 1982 or even later. This is one of those questions where it depends on who you ask, part of that is that no one uses the same definition or even looks at the same things.
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Post by randyb on Aug 4, 2018 21:43:59 GMT -5
I'll tell you a secret (lean in close) You pick any one of us and lf I looked real hard I could find a bunch of peeps w the opinion "This Sucks" .i also know that there are several of us that would give you ideas and feedback, so in short: GO for it Hopefully none of the "this sucks" are hereabouts. randyb , show us you ideas. Like I said upthread, I don't have any ideas for anything beyond musing about the use of any existing skirmish game as the minimum necessary rules for an RPG campaign. That would handle combat. Depending on the game, and the per-figure stats, non-combat could be extrapolated. If the skirmish game interfaced with a larger game, experienced characters could move up to command larger units, and have larger battles. (Tony Bath's Setting up a Wargames Campaign would offer much in setting up the larger stage). OK, here's an example. Old 1st Edition Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader. As I read it, it was intended to scale from skirmish to large army. It also included rules for randomly generating "personalities" (aka "characters") and advancing them if and as they survive battles. No rules about moving those characters into higher command (and thus scaling up to larger battles), but that's easily enough done by any GM worth the title. There's more, but I don't want to belabor the example. That's just the case I'm most familiar with at current.
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Post by Keyone1234 on Aug 5, 2018 0:12:34 GMT -5
Hopefully none of the "this sucks" are hereabouts. randyb , show us you ideas. Like I said upthread, I don't have any ideas for anything beyond musing about the use of any existing skirmish game as the minimum necessary rules for an RPG campaign. That would handle combat. Depending on the game, and the per-figure stats, non-combat could be extrapolated. If the skirmish game interfaced with a larger game, experienced characters could move up to command larger units, and have larger battles. (Tony Bath's Setting up a Wargames Campaign would offer much in setting up the larger stage). OK, here's an example. Old 1st Edition Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader. As I read it, it was intended to scale from skirmish to large army. It also included rules for randomly generating "personalities" (aka "characters") and advancing them if and as they survive battles. No rules about moving those characters into higher command (and thus scaling up to larger battles), but that's easily enough done by any GM worth the title. There's more, but I don't want to belabor the example. That's just the case I'm most familiar with at current. If you have examples of other games that would be good to post. I don't have the warhammer game you mentioned, but if you have other examples I might have one of them.
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Post by randyb on Aug 5, 2018 8:00:47 GMT -5
Like I said upthread, I don't have any ideas for anything beyond musing about the use of any existing skirmish game as the minimum necessary rules for an RPG campaign. That would handle combat. Depending on the game, and the per-figure stats, non-combat could be extrapolated. If the skirmish game interfaced with a larger game, experienced characters could move up to command larger units, and have larger battles. (Tony Bath's Setting up a Wargames Campaign would offer much in setting up the larger stage). OK, here's an example. Old 1st Edition Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader. As I read it, it was intended to scale from skirmish to large army. It also included rules for randomly generating "personalities" (aka "characters") and advancing them if and as they survive battles. No rules about moving those characters into higher command (and thus scaling up to larger battles), but that's easily enough done by any GM worth the title. There's more, but I don't want to belabor the example. That's just the case I'm most familiar with at current. If you have examples of other games that would be good to post. I don't have the warhammer game you mentioned, but if you have other examples I might have one of them. 1st Edition Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader was published back in 1987, and to my knowledge there are no reprints, current or planned. (Curses!) The only other skirmish rules I am familiar with are also from GW: Necromunda, which is roughly based on the immediate previous edition of the main Warhammer 40,000 game; and GW's recently released Kill Team, which is based on the current edition of Warhammer 40,000 (hereinafter 40K). Both are currently supported with new releases announced. What games do you have? I might be able to take a look (via my FLGS if nothing else) and offer some ideas.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Aug 5, 2018 13:32:45 GMT -5
If you have examples of other games that would be good to post. I don't have the warhammer game you mentioned, but if you have other examples I might have one of them. 1st Edition Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader was published back in 1987, and to my knowledge there are no reprints, current or planned. (Curses!) The only other skirmish rules I am familiar with are also from GW: Necromunda, which is roughly based on the immediate previous edition of the main Warhammer 40,000 game; and GW's recently released Kill Team, which is based on the current edition of Warhammer 40,000 (hereinafter 40K). Both are currently supported with new releases announced. What games do you have? I might be able to take a look (via my FLGS if nothing else) and offer some ideas. Mordheim would be good but you can use the Warhammer Fantasy RPG to run it. The Song of Blades & Heroes series would make a potentially good RPG but it also has one. Otherworld Skirmish might make a good one as would Frostgrave, though FG is magic-user centered. Necomunda would make a good setting for a Cyberpunk based sci-fi game.
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Post by Keyone1234 on Sept 1, 2018 16:25:34 GMT -5
If you have examples of other games that would be good to post. I don't have the warhammer game you mentioned, but if you have other examples I might have one of them. 1st Edition Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader was published back in 1987, and to my knowledge there are no reprints, current or planned. (Curses!) The only other skirmish rules I am familiar with are also from GW: Necromunda, which is roughly based on the immediate previous edition of the main Warhammer 40,000 game; and GW's recently released Kill Team, which is based on the current edition of Warhammer 40,000 (hereinafter 40K). Both are currently supported with new releases announced. What games do you have? I might be able to take a look (via my FLGS if nothing else) and offer some ideas. I don't have anything like any of those. Rogue Trader, I love that name.
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Post by mao on Sept 10, 2018 11:43:21 GMT -5
An "N" would be relevant only if it were modernized (This is gonna get me some hate) although it is relevant for the OSR community.But you can't expect most of the younger generation to read any of it. I know I am a Vancaholic, but that is the only thing I would insist that peeps read if they wanted to have an in depth comparison. Things like HBO Porn show "Game of Thrones" are far more influential and watchers unlikely to want to dip a toe in say REH or ERB. We here are Dinos, no sharks, that have been around forever. I couldn't get my son to play OSR, what chance do I have to get new players ? I know my FLCS would never allow me to run 4E let alone 0E. I think OSR needs to concentrate on spreading the gospel of Arnson, and be content with an attempt to correct history.
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Post by Harry Wolf on Sept 10, 2018 20:11:59 GMT -5
The only thing I had to do to get my kids to read older stuff was to have it on a shelf in my den and with a little sign that said adults only. Once they were old enough to understand the sign they asked what that was and I told them those books were for grownups and they wouldn't really get anything out of those books until they were a lot older. They started sneaking them out and reading them. Same thing with playing a lot of games, I worked it so they asked to play, and I'm saying are you sure? Then I made it exciting and fast moving.
What 8-10 year old won't get hooked on Tarzan, John Carter, and Conan.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Sept 11, 2018 9:47:07 GMT -5
The only thing I had to do to get my kids to read older stuff was to have it on a shelf in my den and with a little sign that said adults only. Once they were old enough to understand the sign they asked what that was and I told them those books were for grownups and they wouldn't really get anything out of those books until they were a lot older. They started sneaking them out and reading them. Same thing with playing a lot of games, I worked it so they asked to play, and I'm saying are you sure? Then I made it exciting and fast moving. What 8-10 year old won't get hooked on Tarzan, John Carter, and Conan. Can we say have an exalt Harry Wolf? Why yes we can, here is an exalt for you. Now if I am ever blessed with children I'll be stealing this ploy. kudos man.
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Post by El Borak on Sept 11, 2018 10:12:38 GMT -5
The only thing I had to do to get my kids to read older stuff was to have it on a shelf in my den and with a little sign that said adults only. Once they were old enough to understand the sign they asked what that was and I told them those books were for grownups and they wouldn't really get anything out of those books until they were a lot older. They started sneaking them out and reading them. Same thing with playing a lot of games, I worked it so they asked to play, and I'm saying are you sure? Then I made it exciting and fast moving. What 8-10 year old won't get hooked on Tarzan, John Carter, and Conan. Can we say have an exalt Harry Wolf ? Why yes we can, here is an exalt for you. Now if I am ever blessed with children I'll be stealing this ploy. kudos man. An exalt from me as well, making the good stuff into forbidden fruit is brilliant.
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Post by mao on Sept 12, 2018 7:46:14 GMT -5
The only thing I had to do to get my kids to read older stuff was to have it on a shelf in my den and with a little sign that said adults only. Once they were old enough to understand the sign they asked what that was and I told them those books were for grownups and they wouldn't really get anything out of those books until they were a lot older. They started sneaking them out and reading them. Same thing with playing a lot of games, I worked it so they asked to play, and I'm saying are you sure? Then I made it exciting and fast moving. What 8-10 year old won't get hooked on Tarzan, John Carter, and Conan. Wow , Exalt from me too.
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Post by Harry Wolf on Sept 12, 2018 10:43:51 GMT -5
See how being an OD&D referee teaches you to think! It works with players and it works with your kids, in my experience.
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Post by gnombient on Sept 12, 2018 16:59:03 GMT -5
On Page 12 of the 5E Players Handbook is Appendix E; Inspiration.
[snipped]
I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but with mention of D&D being alive, I do think this list above, taken from the text, proves that it is VERY MUCH ALIVE AND BREATHING with OLD SCHOOLINESS
(I reserve the right to trademark OLD SCHOOLINESS just because that's F***ing Awesome)
Other posters have rightly pointed out the mainstreaming of D&D tropes into pop culture (video games, books, etc.), so I have to wonder how useful any sort of extended "inspirational reading" list would be for a newcomer approaching the D&D rules, especially if there are no annotations to help guide them. On the other hand, I think a reading/viewing list is much more useful when considering the tone, background, or flavor of a game setting.
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Post by docsammy on Sept 12, 2018 17:03:38 GMT -5
I appreciate Appendix N and it does help provide a context for the literary inspirations behind D&D, although I don't think it is the end-all-be-all for D&D inspirations either.
Personally, I think Appendix N helps provide context for specific styles of settings in the game, while other types of settings may require a different Appendix N.
For example, the "Appendix N" for something along the lines of Ravenloft would include stuff like Dracula, Frankenstein, H.P. Lovecraft, Edgar Allan Poe, Lord Byron, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, The Castle of Otranto, and the like.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Sept 12, 2018 17:26:02 GMT -5
I appreciate Appendix N and it does help provide a context for the literary inspirations behind D&D, although I don't think it is the end-all-be-all for D&D inspirations either. Personally, I think Appendix N helps provide context for specific styles of settings in the game, while other types of settings may require a different Appendix N. For example, the "Appendix N" for something along the lines of Ravenloft would include stuff like Dracula, Frankenstein, H.P. Lovecraft, Edgar Allan Poe, Lord Byron, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, The Castle of Otranto, and the like. I think it is relevant in giving the context to the origins of the game but I also think new settings should include the inspirations for the setting so we can have insight to what informed its development and give refs & players reference to mine for how best to run games using those inspirations. I always try to include inspirations for my settings in the intro's to my documents.
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Post by mao on Sept 12, 2018 17:42:30 GMT -5
I appreciate Appendix N and it does help provide a context for the literary inspirations behind D&D, although I don't think it is the end-all-be-all for D&D inspirations either. Personally, I think Appendix N helps provide context for specific styles of settings in the game, while other types of settings may require a different Appendix N. For example, the "Appendix N" for something along the lines of Ravenloft would include stuff like Dracula, Frankenstein, H.P. Lovecraft, Edgar Allan Poe, Lord Byron, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, The Castle of Otranto, and the like. Cool way to look at this
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Post by mao on Sept 12, 2018 18:03:37 GMT -5
On Page 12 of the 5E Players Handbook is Appendix E; Inspiration.
[snipped]
I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but with mention of D&D being alive, I do think this list above, taken from the text, proves that it is VERY MUCH ALIVE AND BREATHING with OLD SCHOOLINESS
(I reserve the right to trademark OLD SCHOOLINESS just because that's F***ing Awesome)
Other posters have rightly pointed out the mainstreaming of D&D tropes into pop culture (video games, books, etc.), so I have to wonder how useful any sort of extended "inspirational reading" list would be for a newcomer approaching the D&D rules, especially if there are no annotations to help guide them. On the other hand, I think a reading/viewing list is much more useful when considering the tone, background, or flavor of a game setting.
I have read zero of this list, wow am I a grognard or what
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Post by ripx187 on Sept 12, 2018 18:39:53 GMT -5
I started DMing in my 20's and didn't actually read much along the lines of fantasy until my 30's, so what does that tell you? My inspirations are films and the neighbourhood let's pretend games. Now, I did enjoy history and studying culture which always dominated my reading habits, but as far as fiction goes, I read horror stories.
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Post by mao on Sept 13, 2018 6:59:43 GMT -5
I started DMing in my 20's and didn't actually read much along the lines of fantasy until my 30's, so what does that tell you? My inspirations are films and the neighbourhood let's pretend games. Now, I did enjoy history and studying culture which always dominated my reading habits, but as far as fiction goes, I read horror stories. n the 1970s I was reading the classic Sci Fi stuff, Bradbury, Asimov, Clark etc..
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Post by gnombient on Sept 13, 2018 9:00:26 GMT -5
I started DMing in my 20's and didn't actually read much along the lines of fantasy until my 30's, so what does that tell you? My inspirations are films and the neighbourhood let's pretend games. Now, I did enjoy history and studying culture which always dominated my reading habits, but as far as fiction goes, I read horror stories. I was thinking last night along these same lines. As enlightening as discussions of Appendix N and other designers' inspirational reading lists may be, in some ways it's more interesting to see what influences and inspirations regular gamers brought with them when they first started playing D&D and how those influences and inspirations shaped their understanding of the play of the game -- not the mechanics, but the adventures that played out at the table.
Getting into D&D as a kid during the early 80s, I was completely unaware of at least 95% of the authors in Appendix N. Sadly, I can't really remember specifics of my childhood D&D adventures, but I do know the fantasy I was consuming at the time that would have informed my play: The Hobbit (both the book and the 1977 Rankin-Bass animated film), Star Wars(!), Narnia, Greek mythology (and Harryhausen's Clash of the Titans film), fairy tales, stories of King Arthur and Robin Hood, and Choose Your Own Adventure books; I mention the latter mostly because they provided my friends and I with an immediate frame of reference for the idea of role-playing (I.e., "here's what's happening, you're the hero of the story, what are you going to do?")
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Post by El Borak on Sept 13, 2018 9:03:57 GMT -5
Other posters have rightly pointed out the mainstreaming of D&D tropes into pop culture (video games, books, etc.), so I have to wonder how useful any sort of extended "inspirational reading" list would be for a newcomer approaching the D&D rules, especially if there are no annotations to help guide them. On the other hand, I think a reading/viewing list is much more useful when considering the tone, background, or flavor of a game setting.
I have read zero of this list, wow am I a grognard or what Confession of your sins is good for the soul or so it is said. "'Repent, Harlequin!' Said the Ticktockman"
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Post by mao on Sept 13, 2018 9:10:00 GMT -5
I have read zero of this list, wow am I a grognard or what Confession of your sins is good for the soul or so it is said. "'Repent, Harlequin!' Said the Ticktockman" "I'm Mad, your Mad, we all are Mad" said The Cat "How do you know I'm Mad? said Alice "You Must be or you wouldn't have come here."
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Sept 13, 2018 10:43:49 GMT -5
I started DMing in my 20's and didn't actually read much along the lines of fantasy until my 30's, so what does that tell you? My inspirations are films and the neighbourhood let's pretend games. Now, I did enjoy history and studying culture which always dominated my reading habits, but as far as fiction goes, I read horror stories. I was thinking last night along these same lines. As enlightening as discussions of Appendix N and other designers' inspirational reading lists may be, in some ways it's more interesting to see what influences and inspirations regular gamers brought with them when they first started playing D&D and how those influences and inspirations shaped their understanding of the play of the game -- not the mechanics, but the adventures that played out at the table.
Getting into D&D as a kid during the early 80s, I was completely unaware of at least 95% of the authors in Appendix N. Sadly, I can't really remember specifics of my childhood D&D adventures, but I do know the fantasy I was consuming at the time that would have informed my play: The Hobbit (both the book and the 1977 Rankin-Bass animated film), Star Wars(!), Narnia, Greek mythology (and Harryhausen's Clash of the Titans film), fairy tales, stories of King Arthur and Robin Hood, and Choose Your Own Adventure books; I mention the latter mostly because they provided my friends and I with an immediate frame of reference for the idea of role-playing (I.e., "here's what's happening, you're the hero of the story, what are you going to do?")
The Hobbit show, the animated LOTR & Return of the King, Clash of Titans & Star Wars were far more inspirational to me. I just happened to pick up & read REH's Conan from the library and then in comic form, which led me to Karl Wagner's Kane stories. When I began reading I started with the Illiad & Beowolf, outside those books I was reading the early Forgotten Realms novels, Warhammer Fantasy anthologies, Rogue Roman, Thieves' World anthology series, Dennis L. McKiernan's Mithgar series, the Vlad Taltos series, Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser stories, books by David & Leigh Eddings and various cyberpunk oriented novels as I eventually got more into that gaming wise before I took a seven year break from gaming. Toss in Darkewood, Elflord, Adventurers, Ninja Elite, Elf Warrior & comic strips like Wormy & Thrud the Barbarian in gaming rags, those were my initial influences. As I got older the Poison Elves, Battle Chasers, Avelon comics and various fantasy manga/anime influenced me, as sis Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy, George RR Martin's Songs of Fire & Ice, WotC's early Eberron novels and GW's Black Library novels & comics set in both the Warhammer Fantasy & 40K settings started to inspire me as well. But of all the above Battle Chasers, Poison Elves, Elflord, Darkewood, Avelon, Adventurers (& related comics), D.L. McKiernan's Mithgar series, Thieves' World & the Eberron novels still influence me the most when it comes to my settings, as does a lot of fantasy/sci-fi art as I am more of a visual type guy.
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Post by Harry Wolf on Sept 13, 2018 11:49:31 GMT -5
Of the newer stuff I have read the Thieves' World anthology series, Dennis L. McKiernan's Mithgar series, David & Leigh Eddings and loved all of them.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Sept 13, 2018 11:56:48 GMT -5
I'd reread each volume of both the Belgariad and the Mallorean each time a new volume was published. I need to read the Belgarath and Polgara books, plus their The Elenium and its sequel The Tamuli trilogies.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Sept 13, 2018 15:16:10 GMT -5
A lot of David & Leigh Eddings characters read like Robert Heinlein characters.
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Post by hengest on Apr 2, 2022 0:14:04 GMT -5
It's relevant but not as gospel.
The original designers had a certain cultural context they were formed in. Even television was not the many-armed monster it later became. The books one read were a much bigger percentage of the information one absorbed. A book back then could be a "life-changer."
So it is relevant not because we need to read all those same books but because if we have lost something from the early days, it's not only because of TSR's business history but also because of changes in socialization, work, free time, reading. Looking back at Appendix N can help us to see where a designer / editor was coming from in those days and what imaginative matrix was the "implied setting" in the players' minds. We have different imaginative matrices now, especially younger people. Knowing that difference might be helpful in reinvigorating what was good about the old days and in bringing in new good things from today.
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