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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 25, 2018 7:45:01 GMT -5
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Post by mao on Jul 25, 2018 7:51:48 GMT -5
Thanx for this Mighty, very cool to see this.
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Post by Mr Darke on Sept 13, 2018 18:17:58 GMT -5
Gonna be yoinking the death rule.
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ampleframework
Prospector
Searching for the portal to Blackmoor
Posts: 72
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Post by ampleframework on May 2, 2020 18:58:30 GMT -5
With ancient spices from the City of the Gods combined with the blood of a young two-headed goat and incantations from Phandaal's 32nd Necromancy, I conjure this discussion from the aether again to mention that these house rules have had a recent shout-out in a blog.The theme of either heavily reinforcing or refuting the vaunted lethality of early D&D seems to be a popular topic these days. I somewhat lean in the direction of this blogger, but in a more lukewarm way. I've used Gary's houserules before and think he was onto something with them. By the book 3lbb D&D is perhaps a bit too on-the-nose, but one must be careful not to go too far in the other direction, either. Gary's houserules are "just about right" for the type of campaign I like to run. One change I personally make is to start everybody off with 5,000 xp, which would make you effectively up to a level 3 character depending on class. That's a slightly stronger starting point for OD&D with a few more options for casters.
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Post by mao on May 4, 2020 7:53:46 GMT -5
With ancient spices from the City of the Gods combined with the blood of a young two-headed goat and incantations from Phandaal's 32nd Necromancy, I conjure this discussion from the aether again to mention that these house rules have had a recent shout-out in a blog.The theme of either heavily reinforcing or refuting the vaunted lethality of early D&D seems to be a popular topic these days. I somewhat lean in the direction of this blogger, but in a more lukewarm way. I've used Gary's houserules before and think he was onto something with them. By the book 3lbb D&D is perhaps a bit too on-the-nose, but one must be careful not to go too far in the other direction, either. Gary's houserules are "just about right" for the type of campaign I like to run. One change I personally make is to start everybody off with 5,000 xp, which would make you effectively up to a level 3 character depending on class. That's a slightly stronger starting point for OD&D with a few more options for casters. I've prob spent 10years of gme time w the PCs at 1st level, I might be over this. I effectively make wizards about 3rd level in casting power at first. I am starting to come around to the idea of starting at 2-3rd w just the addition of cantrips. sigh, I am groing old and soft, although the last 4 months or so of game brought a return to heavy kills on players. I hadn't killed anyone in like 12-15 years.
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ampleframework
Prospector
Searching for the portal to Blackmoor
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Post by ampleframework on May 4, 2020 8:03:05 GMT -5
I'd hesitate to add cantrips into my Perdition OD&D houserules just because they don't fit the tone of the setting, but starting everyone with 5,000 or so xp is a very common house rule among old hands. Gary did it towards the end, I believe Dave often started people at more Heroic ranges, and Gonnerman does it over at the Basic Fantasy group. The extra bonuses for good stats is also a solid idea. It brings PCs more in like with the Greyhawk starting point but without adopting other facets of that which I don't prefer. (I really like the way HP is accumulated in 3lbb, which is weird because I started with BECMI and all the funny dice, but something about the original math just works for me.)
However, something like a very minor wand of Magic Darts or something, or maybe like a "cattle prod" lightning generator for self defense, something the baddie would have to save vs wands against, that might be my version of a cantrip. Or maybe a bag of single-use spell scrolls. Or the option to choose. I'm always editing.
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Post by mao on May 4, 2020 8:26:09 GMT -5
I'd hesitate to add cantrips into my Perdition OD&D houserules just because they don't fit the tone of the setting, but starting everyone with 5,000 or so xp is a very common house rule among old hands. Gary did it towards the end, I believe Dave often started people at more Heroic ranges, and Gonnerman does it over at the Basic Fantasy group. The extra bonuses for good stats is also a solid idea. It brings PCs more in like with the Greyhawk starting point but without adopting other facets of that which I don't prefer. (I really like the way HP is accumulated in 3lbb, which is weird because I started with BECMI and all the funny dice, but something about the original math just works for me.) However, something like a very minor wand of Magic Darts or something, or maybe like a "cattle prod" lightning generator for self defense, something the baddie would have to save vs wands against, that might be my version of a cantrip. Or maybe a bag of single-use spell scrolls. Or the option to choose. I'm always editing. As a player I love to have cantrips, although the 3 ed-5 ed ones are too powerful w unlimited uses, I make detect magic a cantrip(the first l version is also available and is far more powerful) that you can use about 3 times, w a flash of insight into one object or being.
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Post by mao on May 4, 2020 8:33:45 GMT -5
I'd hesitate to add cantrips into my Perdition OD&D houserules just because they don't fit the tone of the setting, but starting everyone with 5,000 or so xp is a very common house rule among old hands. Gary did it towards the end, I believe Dave often started people at more Heroic ranges, and Gonnerman does it over at the Basic Fantasy group. The extra bonuses for good stats is also a solid idea. It brings PCs more in like with the Greyhawk starting point but without adopting other facets of that which I don't prefer. (I really like the way HP is accumulated in 3lbb, which is weird because I started with BECMI and all the funny dice, but something about the original math just works for me.) However, something like a very minor wand of Magic Darts or something, or maybe like a "cattle prod" lightning generator for self defense, something the baddie would have to save vs wands against, that might be my version of a cantrip. Or maybe a bag of single-use spell scrolls. Or the option to choose. I'm always editing. IIf you start wizs at 33rd cantrips and "zappy " wands and scrolls are less important. I have used all of your above ideas plus a few more like firearms and letting wizs use swords(BTW this doesn't end well most of the time as the wizs commit "suicide" with them, lol)
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ampleframework
Prospector
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Post by ampleframework on May 4, 2020 10:00:10 GMT -5
Speaking of guns and magic...well, this might be a topic for another thread, but suffice to say, keeping with the theme of Gary Gygax and the OD&D setting, especially if you consider the encounter tables, one could make an argument for their potential inclusion. There's definitely a gonzo post-apocalyptic vibe to the implied OD&D world. I've been personally inspired to that end with some locales and artifacts, but I won't spoil any surprises because I plan on running a pbp here at some point.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 4, 2020 10:07:39 GMT -5
mao and ampleframework, I have looked at tons of house rules over the last 10 years or so and now the series I am going through looking at OD&D on my blog and rolling things back to the college school year of 75-76 and returning to what I did then. Writing it all out made me realize just how many house rules I had. I still like to start players off at 1st level and go from their. And although I love to make random tables, I have not used a random table for encounters or treasure since about the middle of year two or so. I create almost everything on the fly both Wilderness and Dungeon. And monsters and treasure, if any, are done on the fly as it occurs to me. When I start talking to the players, they are hearing me create everything in real time on the fly. Even the first year or year and half. I did about half of it that way and even then was not a heavy user of the tables. Funny since I love creating tables.
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 4, 2020 10:26:35 GMT -5
I think tables have always sort of been more for inspiration and flavor than anything else, to be honest, David. I've heard very many long term referees claim to never use them, and one of the first things Gary said about them in his writings was that he pretty much ignored them if he didn't like what he rolled, which might logically lead someone to ask "Why roll to begin with?"
When I ran my most recent Zero Ed game back in the summer, what I did for that handful of sessions was to make up a handful of encounters by terrain type and write those down ahead of time, and then pick out whichever one would work best for a given situation. I add layers to my prep, anyway, and so if the encounter is "Giant", it could be the tracks of a giant, it could be a dead giant being picked clean by vultures, or it could be a friendly giant willing to trade, but I determine those characteristics at home before the game is run instead of rolling all those dice at the table.
I kind of enjoy those more thematic encounters, by the way. Those that hint at something magical or dangerous but it's not directly there. Seeing a burnt spot and some skeletons where a Dragon attacked a caravan earlier, for instance, can be thematic and chilling for a low level party moving a little too close to the Dragon's cave. That's my theory, anyway.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 4, 2020 10:48:41 GMT -5
The tables are there if you need them. I like building tables, because writing ideas down helps you remember them, even if you do not actually use the table at the table so to speak.
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 11, 2020 17:03:13 GMT -5
The tables are there if you need them. I like building tables, because writing ideas down helps you remember them, even if you do not actually use the table at the table so to speak. I feel the same way with dungeons, to be honest. I have trouble running stuff someone else wrote. Even iconic dungeons or dungeons I've ran or played through before. If someone else wrote it down and I read it, I don't retain a lot of the information, especially if there's a bunch of "flavor text". My eyes just gloss over. But if I write it down myself, I remember like 90% of it without having to look at it. Case in point, I was just reading through a module from the Basic Fantasy line yesterday called Caves of Chaos. I've owned this book for three years and ran it a few times. I was looking at it less than 24 hours ago but I couldn't tell you the basic layout of the thing beyond the surface details. Yet, my own campaign dungeon, "The Devil's Gullet", I haven't ran since July but I know every nook and cranny. Isn't it weird how the Human brain works sometimes? (It's not my intention to bug you all the time, by the way. I know you've had a lot on your mind lately and I sympathize strongly. I've just been laid off work, drawing unemployment due to the pandemic for about a month and a half, and I'm trying to fill up my days. This board's given me a lot of inspiration and stuff to look forward to, though! Hope you're doing alright and can forgive my enthusiasm and boredom in some circumstances.)
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Post by karaunios on May 13, 2020 3:15:31 GMT -5
I'm pretty much in the same vibe as the Perilous Dreamer. I love the idea of designing/writing down stuff, be it tables, dungeons and lore, but once I've done it, I feel like I just put barriers to my creativity.
I end up discarding them and improvising the whole thing while in the game. I remember what's there even two years afterwards.
Regarding tables exclusively, it's pretty much the same. I like thematic encounters, and not just the kind in which you come across a monster that you have to fight (although there's room for those too), and there's no way you can write down all the possibilities in one table, especially if you want that table to be usable, something that isn't possible if you help expanding it (what dice would you roll if you have 134 encounters jotted down).
So I just wing it. My friends don't ever notice. Actually the game runs smoother, since there's less rolling on my part.
It's a pain in the neck, to be honest, since I always like writing down stuff for my games, but "can't" because those reasons.
I think I'll just do it for entertainment and, like ampleframework said, I do it for entertainment and because I'll remember the basic layout (or, rather, almost everything down to every detail...). The same happens to me with modules. Maybe I just steal ideas, because there's no way I'm gonna do all the work to memorize them. Way better to design my own stuff. It's true: the human brain works in weird ways.
PS - Exception, B1. I love that one.
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Post by karaunios on May 13, 2020 3:26:02 GMT -5
And, in order to add to the original discussion, those are roughly the house rules I use in my games, but I grant a +2 to those at 18 in the attribute.
I use variable damage and hit dice, and thought of an easier way of granting more boni to higher attributes but not as advantageous (or complicated) as those in Greyhawk.
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ampleframework
Prospector
Searching for the portal to Blackmoor
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Post by ampleframework on May 13, 2020 15:38:18 GMT -5
Yeah, on the original topic, these are some beautifully succinct and applicable houserules for 3lbb play. I'm not sure exactly how often Gary actually ran D&D later in life, though. (His posts at Dragonsfoot and EN World made it pretty clear he was strongly focused on writing adventures and rules for Troll Lord Games, with an especial focus on his Lejendary Adventures rules)
I've heard two or three variations ranging from a weekly game on his front porch to a few times a year at conventions. I see comments in blogs and other forums about how these specific house rules weren't for his home game at all but for convention games, which somewhat makes sense. I think they would work pretty well for a home campaign, too, though. The most telling thing is that there appears to be two distinct but somewhat similar sets of "Gary's OD&D houserules" and this could most easily be explained as two different revisions for different convention games. Perhaps the later one was a developed after trying the earlier one and deciding it needed some tweaking?
Alas, Gary is no longer around to contextualize this. I'd like to track down people who played in some of those games and see if they have any insight, although it's been my experience so far that people tend to remember the adventures more than the mechanics when they look back years later at their D&D games. That's certainly the case with me. I can remember vividly the characters and scenarios of my early 90's games but I can't even begin to tell you what level I got to or what my thac0 was. I don't even really care! I consider that unimportant data. My brain simply didn't retain it.
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Post by karaunios on May 15, 2020 0:58:44 GMT -5
I agree with what you say about the mechanics not being the part you (or the players for that matter) won't remember, but the stories. The mechanics just get in the way of having a fun game and creating a story together. There's exceptions here and there, of course, like when one of my players got to bend his prison bars with 4% chance lol
I think to recall Gary saying over at Dragonsfoot that OD&D (just the 3lbbs) was his favorite iteration of the game. I think those are the house rules he used for the Troll Lord guys while running them through the first levels of Greyhawk on a campaign that lasted several months, I believe, by the end of good days.
I don't remember where I saw Rob Kuntz saying that those were the rules they used in the play test btid. I guess that those are the rules they ended up using, since they might have used many different variations during the playtest.
But, sadly, I can't remember where did I see that. Perhaps someone could lend a hand?
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 16, 2020 1:23:11 GMT -5
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Post by karaunios on May 16, 2020 8:48:23 GMT -5
Thanks for those links, The Perilous Dreamer. I guess I have another long reading to do. I already have three blogs that I'm reading from beginning to end. One of them being yours, by the way. I'm enjoying it and have a long way to go (still in December 3 2014).
If I ever get to do the reading of Rob's posts and if I come across anything referring to those house rules, I'll give you guys a shot.
PS - How do you make a reference to other user, by the way?
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 16, 2020 8:59:32 GMT -5
Thanks for those links, The Perilous Dreamer. I guess I have another long reading to do. I already have three blogs that I'm reading from beginning to end. One of them being yours, by the way. I'm enjoying it and have a long way to go (still in December 3 2014). If I ever get to do the reading of Rob's posts and if I come across anything referring to those house rules, I'll give you guys a shot. PS - How do you make a reference to other user, by the way? karaunios look at the menu across the top of the post. Over at the right side see the similey face and to the left it says quote? next left is the C for insert code and next is the insert user link. If you let your mouse hover over each it will tell you what it is, if you are not on a computer but on a phone, someone else will have to advise you, as I have never used a phone for this. If you click on insert user link, type in the first part of the name and it should pop up and then click on the name that appears, if more than one select the correct one.
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Post by karaunios on May 16, 2020 11:33:59 GMT -5
Thanks a lot but, at the moment, I'm doing this from my phone :-(
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 16, 2020 13:12:52 GMT -5
Thanks a lot but, at the moment, I'm doing this from my phone :-( If you need more help maybe someone else that uses a phone can chime in, I do not know what you see when using a phone.
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Post by karaunios on May 16, 2020 13:37:05 GMT -5
Not many options. Quote, exalt, see profile and report post. That's why.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 16, 2020 17:49:48 GMT -5
Not many options. Quote, exalt, see profile and report post. That's why. I posted up in the main forum for other phone users to share what they know. You should ask questions their. I know several people post with their phones and I think there are tricks to learn.
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Post by karaunios on May 17, 2020 1:00:42 GMT -5
Great. Thanks.
And sorry to the rest for filling this thread with my nonsense.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 17, 2020 2:27:29 GMT -5
Great. Thanks. And sorry to the rest for filling this thread with my nonsense. You are fine, asking questions is cool around here.
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