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Post by Old Timer on May 22, 2018 11:29:53 GMT -5
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Post by Old Timer on May 22, 2018 11:32:07 GMT -5
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on May 22, 2018 13:09:11 GMT -5
I like it, I've been a fan of the concept of Dungeonpunk Fantasy. Being drawn to Punk music since I was a kid I tended to like edgy gutter level stuff in a lot of my music & art. The Dungeonpunk Counter-Manifesto feels far more Punk than the lame Dungeonpunk Manifesto it was written to counter. I think Dungeonpunk could be awesome if married to a Grim Dark Gonzo setting. My World of Skârn wouldn't be the right fit for a Dungeon-punk campaign & frankly I doubt my World of Xôðûn would marry to it either but there are areas in both I could run such a campaign if I so choose. Being a fan of various "punk" literary/subcultures such as Cyberpunk, Dieselpunk & Steampunk, the concept of Dungeonpunk appealed to me. The problem was the only settings that are often referred to as "Dungeonpunk" were generic fantasy with TONS of magic & twists on playable races - you could play monsters. Though Eberron pushed a more Pulp/noire feel but in practice it was often relegated to the dustbin, though the fiction often tried to evoke it. The Iron Kingdoms was another setting that fell under Dungeonpunk or Arcanepunk. There are only two games I know of that can really give Dungeonpunk a proper nod, Blades in the Dark and For Coin & Blood. I'll likely work up an area in both my current settings where I can run Dungeonpunk campaigns in them. But I'll also likely develop a mini-setting for such games linked to the Multiverse of Akar; whereas the World of Skârn will be my vanilla D&D setting and the World of Xôðûn will be my more Gonzo fantasy setting. Link for Blades in the Dark. Link for 'For Coin & Blood. |
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Post by Keyone1234 on May 22, 2018 18:18:24 GMT -5
How do you define DungeonPunk and how do you define GrimDark?
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on May 22, 2018 20:11:28 GMT -5
Lets start here with TV Tropes description of Dungeonpunk as it gives you the common accepted definition. Here is a blurb from the Dungeonpunk RPG on sale from DrivethruRPG: "The stinking dirty giant rotting cities built upon many layers of ancient ruins. The pitiful and weak people hiding in dread behind great stone walls from the chaos outside. All surrounded by the dark and unforgiving wilderness of a dying world. Far and wide the stony mysterious remnants of some lost foreboding and ancient powerful civilization peak forth from the ruins scattered across the realms waiting centuries to be explored! Ancient and forbidden monster and forgotten nameless demon filled dungeons deep and full of marvelous plunder. The omens have been read and the signs in the stars tell of this age of adventure! The desperate, brave, pious, and insane adventurers in search of magic and treasure so that one can gain fame, comfort, drink, and pleasure! The fools that delve deep and fear not stirring up of the ancient powers that hide away in the darkness, least they die invisible and forgotten after time! No not these brave and foolhardy ones! Their names shall be remembered and etched in the tales and legends of many generations! So one may take the sword, dagger, staff, and mace and go forward! Forget not your trusty backpack and equipment for adventure! It is time for one to begin their adventure and not die forgotten by time!" Here is the Wikipedia article on Grimdark, it gives a basic view on the topic. My previous campaigns often had elements of this no matter the setting I used be it my own or even Greyhawk. Dungeonpunk in my view is a Grimdark setting that adds like TV Tropes mentions magitek to the mix, whereas Eberron & Iron Kingdoms have aspects that include dungeonpunk elements it is in my view too optimistic. The comic by Drew Hayes' (R.I.P.) Poison Elves has influenced my take on fantasy, it has a strong Dungeonpunk feel. Elves often live in urban ghettos & are just as often as violent & nasty as their human neighbors, drinking, whoring, stealing & killing to earn a living. They go on adventures either to try to rise above or get someone they owe a debt to off their back if they are too powerful to kill. Though Poison Elves doesn't have a lot of magitek, the main character has a magical automatic pistol that never needs to be reloaded. I love the idea of magical powered "Cybernetics", airships & elemental powered trains. I'd like Eberron better if they took more technology that Iron Kingdoms has. IF I had my way my next group would want to do a full on grimdark fueled Dungeonpunk campaign. I might just create a city-state for my latest setting that is based around that kind of campaign, instead of a full setting of it. |
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Post by Colinouchou on May 22, 2018 20:52:22 GMT -5
Simon Ellberger definition of Grimdark
When I think of Dungeonpunk, I do not think of anything even tangentially related to 3E/3.5E in anyway, not the art or anything else.
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Post by Robert the Black on May 22, 2018 21:04:17 GMT -5
I think that I would mix OD&D, Blackmoor, Arduin Bloody Arduin, The Horseclans, and Hiero's Journey/The Unforsaken Hiero with a little Conan and a little Cthulhu. I think that would give you a good mix of Dungeonpunk and Grimdark.
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Post by Bartholmew Quarrels on May 22, 2018 21:11:41 GMT -5
That was a pretty good blog post and I am curious as to where this thread will go. I would like to hear more about a DungeonPunk GrimDark Campaign and what that would look like.
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Post by ripx187 on May 28, 2018 16:09:11 GMT -5
I don't know how I feel about this. I mean, I like a dark world, but actually defining it as "something" seems to put a lot of limitations on the idea. Granted, it is not a totally unique thing to do, but to summarize it in these terms we take the glamor away from it. I like to have social problems going on in the background. I want a gritty edge with a logical flow of natural consequences. I also like to enforce the universal law that no good deed shall go unpunished.
I do like the work that The Disoriented Ranger did. I find myself doing much of this stuff anyway, however, I think that it makes logical sense and there is no other way to do it. As the keeper of the game state, it is our duty to keep the world at war, to ensure that Might is Right, to use social classes to keep the whole machine running in interesting ways.
What bugs me the most is the whole link to Steampunk as defined by the TV Trope. I don't want a modern world powered by magic. I've got a hard enough time excepting the capitalism implied by rules of D&D, but what are we to do? It works. I have to accept the "Golden Rule", but I refuse to have magic become or even replace science. That sounds too much like Pokemon to me, and that is a video game trope that I don't want. My own personal preference and bigotry, of course, but as a general rule I seek to divorce the influence of Video games completely from my game.
What also interests me about this is the link to music. I've heard of it before. How so-and-so's game is Heavy Metal inspired, which I honestly don't understand. I asked if it was the movie that they were talking about, but they said that it was the music style. I was a teen in the heyday of Metal: Anthrax, Megadeth, Slayer, etc. But I just don't see the correlation between modern(?) music and fantasy games. I intend no disrespect; I would like to know how punk music influence your game Hexenritter Verlag? Is it something that you listen to when designing or is it deeper than that? |
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Post by Admin Pete on May 29, 2018 0:07:51 GMT -5
I followed the links and I think you can just ignore the TV Tropes thing. Steampunk to me is Jules Verne and HG Wells and I don't have to get more detailed than that. I think you can do the Steampunk without doing magic as technology. I think you just tweak the magic for the setting and I would probably have gunpowder be unreliable. The beauty of it is that you don't have to worry about anyone's definitions, just do your own thing. It is good to have some(some) common terminology to discuss ideas, but there is nothing wrong in saying here is how I define it in my setting.
As far as music I think of the sound tracks from genre movies can be inspiring but I am not setup to play music during the game itself. Music does lend itself to idea creation as does many things.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on May 29, 2018 0:57:21 GMT -5
What also interests me about this is the link to music. I've heard of it before. How so-and-so's game is Heavy Metal inspired, which I honestly don't understand. I asked if it was the movie that they were talking about, but they said that it was the music style. I was a teen in the heyday of Metal: Anthrax, Megadeth, Slayer, etc. But I just don't see the correlation between modern(?) music and fantasy games. I intend no disrespect; I would like to know how punk music influence your game Hexenritter Verlag ? Is it something that you listen to when designing or is it deeper than that? First off I am not offended, so I hope my tone below doesn't gives this impression as I respect you immensely ripx187 . Not everyone likes the same kind of fantasy. I enjoy Sword & Sorcery, Steampunk/Dieselpunk, Arcanepunk/Dungeonpunk, anime/manga & even traditional fantasy. When it comes to music Metal, Punk & Goth music inspires me as I create. In fact my initial post-2010 version of ‘World of Skârn’ was meant to be a points-of-light "Beer & Bud" setting, inspired by metal music I love. Take the names for various locations such as: the Mountains of Kalessin, Witchhammer, Galhammer and Crooked Spine were named after Metal bands, the last a song by the Sludge band Cough; the same goes for the Wastes of Gojira, Empire of Arkhon & goddess Anghra (with added h) are also named after Metal bands. Most are not favorite bands but fit in a fantasy setting best. Even my Dark Elves are visually inspired by pictures of Black Metal bands & chicks. See below:   I often listen to Metal, Punk, Goth & even Hip Hop as I am writing or drawing. I also grew up a fan of Warhammer Fantasy & 40K which had fans in the UK metal & Hardcore scene, they even had fans Oakland, California in the Crust Punk scene, take the band Skaven as an example. I am a sum of all my influences. If I had the artistic talent I'd create my own art infused with Metal & Punk tropes for my dungeonpunk inspired City-State of Môrgað in my World of Xôðûn - such as characters with Mohawks, spikes and such. I have Metal Magazines & posters up in my house I was a full on metalhead into my 30s before become a Hooligan if it wasn't for the fact I've tried to repair my relationship with my family I'd never have dress like a "Normie", I'd wear all black, leather & denim or flight jackets all year long, covered with band patches & pins, plus spikes. The World of Xôðûn is influenced by the gonzo-ness of Arduin & the ‘World of Skârn’ has become my more traditional fantasy setting minus technology (be it magitek or mundane). I am a very visual guy so things like Metal & Punk album art & costuming like in the above pictures inspire how I envision a lot of how I visualize things as I stated above, as does anime/manga, comics & such. Sure it might not appeal to you or most of the members of this forum but that doesn't matter, as I am inspired by you guys and gals as well. Take Mr Darke 's World, which is set in a historical fantasy based world, that is influenced by his spirituality - reading his stuff has me thinking of how I could do such a project. As I work on my revisions on ‘World of Skârn’ they will hew closer to traditional fantasy tropes but still be inspired by Metal but less by the Doom, Thrash & Black sub-genres, but by Pagan, Folk & some Power Metal, will it bleed into my revisions like they had before? Who knows, but they'll influence my work none the less. |
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Post by ripx187 on May 29, 2018 16:10:12 GMT -5
Okay, I dig it Hexenritter Verlag. I suppose that I do the same thing with western music. When put on the spot, it just comes out. Thanks for taking the time to expand on it! Have an Exalt. |
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Post by ripx187 on May 29, 2018 16:29:48 GMT -5
As far as music I think of the sound tracks from genre movies can be inspiring but I am not setup to play music during the game itself. Music does lend itself to idea creation as does many things. I used ambiance at a game once, but it was hard to find the right volume. The folks on the far side of the table couldn't hear it because if I turned it up so that they could then the other side of the table had a hard time listening to me. I also use a microphone system sometimes because I have a problem with projecting my voice, I'm a mumbler Hey! My wife gave me a bluetooth speaker for X-mas! I bet that I could set that on the table. Free Ambient Mixer: Warning, once you get to playing with this thing you will experience some missing time. |
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Post by ripx187 on Jun 1, 2018 15:44:12 GMT -5
I really dig this idea Hexenritter Verlag, of deliberately adding musical references into the game. I'm thinking now of ways to incorporate the philosophies of the Grateful Dead into a faction of rogue wizards. I'm not sure what will happen when you put an Antiwar-Antiestablishment guild into a feudal society, but it could prove to be interesting. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jun 1, 2018 16:17:25 GMT -5
I really dig this idea Hexenritter Verlag , of deliberately adding musical references into the game. I'm thinking now of ways to incorporate the philosophies of the Grateful Dead into a faction of rogue wizards. I'm not sure what will happen when you put an Antiwar-Antiestablishment guild into a feudal society, but it could prove to be interesting. Sounds very cool ripx187, I hope that you do it & please share the results when you get a chance. |
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Post by eldrad on Jul 20, 2020 8:10:15 GMT -5
Yet Another DUNGEONPUNK RPG MANIFESTO. Saw this Dungeonpunk Manefesto and Dungeonpunk counter manefesto. Yeah no. Let me make mine and see what people think... AND here is the link to the DUNGEONPUNK RPG heh! www.drivethrurpg.com/product/209450/Dungeonpunk1. Violence is the answer to most questions, next is talking about it and thinking. 2. The world is only there to make you a victim and take everything from you so screw the world! 3. You must take what you want and fight to keep it, just not die over it. 4. Humanoids and Demons are inherently evil and must be killed before they kill you and destroy everything you value. 5. Foul unnatural beast are mostly evil and must be killed before they kill you. 6. The nobility for the most part are selfish evil and don't care about the lower class people and will use you without care. 7. The church is corrupt and only cares about power and gold. 8. The lower class does not stick together as most people are out for themselves and will do what they must to survive. 9. The party is the only family most of you have but a family member can still betray you. 10. Make sure that you always have a plan of escape, especially when you are in a "safe" place. 11. Those who do not make every effort to survive no matter what, will die as no one deserves to live. 12. A true friend is rare and yet still may betray you. 13. There are no true friends, only people who have not been made the right offer to sell you out. 14. There is no "safe" space and the longer you stay the more unsafe it becomes. 15. Cultist are the worst of enemies as they have no problem killing themselves to kill you and everyone around and they have no limits on how screwed up they can be. 16. Most of the gods don't care and if you do contact a god then most likely it just wants to eat you. 17. Live life, party, and have good times while you can because either you will die or grow to old and then die. 18. Always get vengeance when you can but also know when to run away so you can get vengeance later. 19. The undead suck. www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211061/DUNGEONPUNK-Character-Sheetwww.drivethrurpg.com/product/209450/DungeonpunkThere is also more with ADVANCED DUNGEONPUNK DUNGEONMETAL! www.drivethrurpg.com/product/214744/Advanced-Dungeonpunk-Dungeonmetal |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 21, 2020 15:16:32 GMT -5
Referring back to the OP, The DungeonPunk Manifesto that the blog author found and re-posted was (as was pointed out) atrocious. The The DungeonPunk Counter-Manifesto from the blog is a bit confusing as to why it is "DungeonPunk," since everything in it is pretty much standard OD&D old school gaming.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 21, 2020 15:34:34 GMT -5
Hi eldrad ! Yet Another DUNGEONPUNK RPG MANIFESTO. Saw this Dungeonpunk Manefesto and Dungeonpunk counter manefesto. Yeah no. Let me make mine and see what people think... 1. Violence is the answer to most questions, next is talking about it and thinking. I guess I am not Dungeonpunk, I put thinking at the top of the list, right next to those automatic reflexes that take over in an emergency. 2. The world is only there to make you a victim and take everything from you so screw the world! That is the real world, so my game world is not quite that vicious. 3. You must take what you want and fight to keep it, just not die over it. Generally true. 4. Humanoids and Demons are inherently evil and must be killed before they kill you and destroy everything you value. This! 5. Foul unnatural beast are mostly evil and must be killed before they kill you. This! 6. The nobility for the most part are selfish evil and don't care about the lower class people and will use you without care. I retain this part of the real world. nobility and/or rich and/or political class. 7. The church is corrupt and only cares about power and gold. Yeah, the real world pagans and fakes. 8. The lower class does not stick together as most people are out for themselves and will do what they must to survive. This is so real world, so in my game world the lower class loves Robin Hood types and will help them out. 9. The party is the only family most of you have but a family member can still betray you. Wow, I do not knowingly game with players that do that. 10. Make sure that you always have a plan of escape, especially when you are in a "safe" place. Always a good plan. 11. Those who do not make every effort to survive no matter what, will die as no one deserves to live. This is often true. 12. A true friend is rare and yet still may betray you. That is not part of my game. 13. There are no true friends, only people who have not been made the right offer to sell you out. That is not part of my game, but only in regard to a true friend which includes the party members, but everyone else in the world that is not a true friend is fair game. 14. There is no "safe" space and the longer you stay the more unsafe it becomes. Only you own stronghold comes close to a "safe" space 99% of the time. 15. Cultist are the worst of enemies as they have no problem killing themselves to kill you and everyone around and they have no limits on how screwed up they can be. Yeah, I retain this real world feature. This is on the news every night these days. 16. Most of the gods don't care and if you do contact a god then most likely it just wants to eat you. All of the fake gods are this way. 17. Live life, party, and have good times while you can because either you will die or grow to old and then die. My game is more optimistic than this, but yeah you will die eventually. 18. Always get vengeance when you can but also know when to run away so you can get vengeance later. I game with people who prefer justice to vengenance. Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by eldrad on Aug 9, 2020 9:00:02 GMT -5
Thanks for the response!
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Post by raikenclw on Aug 14, 2020 15:52:06 GMT -5
Yet Another DUNGEONPUNK RPG MANIFESTO. [snip] Let me make mine and see what people think... Sounds very much like something an Annalist of the Black Company might have written: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Company |
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Post by eldrad on Nov 29, 2020 16:59:05 GMT -5
I would have responded sooner but I got hit with two hurricanes then my dad died.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 29, 2020 20:34:11 GMT -5
I would have responded sooner but I got hit with two hurricanes then my dad died. My condolences on the death of your dad. I am really sorry to hear that. I lost my dad a few years back and my mom a few years before that, so I feel for you. I did not know you were down in that area, I hope you did not lose anything (besides time) due to the hurricanes. Is everything OK now in the aftermath? |
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Post by True Black Raven on Nov 30, 2020 1:57:17 GMT -5
My vote would be for Grimdark, post-apocalyptic version.
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Post by raikenclw on Nov 30, 2020 17:56:44 GMT -5
I would have responded sooner but I got hit with two hurricanes then my dad died. Sorry to hear this! |
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Post by Traveroark on Dec 1, 2020 16:14:19 GMT -5
I would have responded sooner but I got hit with two hurricanes then my dad died. Sorry to hear about your dad! |
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Post by Traveroark on Dec 1, 2020 16:18:08 GMT -5
Yet Another DUNGEONPUNK RPG MANIFESTO. Saw this Dungeonpunk Manefesto and Dungeonpunk counter manefesto. Yeah no. Let me make mine and see what people think... AND here is the link to the DUNGEONPUNK RPG heh! www.drivethrurpg.com/product/209450/DungeonpunkThat is a dark world where even your best friend will sell you out. I drop that part, because it makes it too real world, everything else is good to go. |
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Post by El Borak on Jan 17, 2021 19:24:26 GMT -5
My vote would be for Grimdark, post-apocalyptic version. I would play in that and I would also happily read novels about it. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Jan 29, 2021 20:24:29 GMT -5
My vote would be for Grimdark, post-apocalyptic version. I would play in that and I would also happily read novels about it. I love post-apocalyptic fiction. |
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Post by Dartanian on Jan 31, 2021 15:19:03 GMT -5
I would play in that and I would also happily read novels about it. I love post-apocalyptic fiction. As do I and I believe that D&D implies a post-apocalyptic world. |
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Post by Paladin on Jan 31, 2021 18:50:52 GMT -5
Grimdark is hard to beat.
I'm a sucker for the plain old points of light idea that greatness came "before" and we're just rats scuttling in the refuse of a fallen world. Exploring their ruins.
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