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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 20:54:05 GMT -5
I started this thread to reply to mao 's DM Rant thread. I just have to disagree with much of what he said. Where I agree with him, the comments stay in his thread and where I disagree, they go in this thread. So let's get to it. The Min Maxing PLayer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I don't have a prob with these guys. The way I look at it, is if he can break the rules, the rules are bad not the player. Admittedly my exposure to these is limited but I've also seen a trend that goes along with min maxing. In my experience they are also good to excellent RPers. They might actually be the total package In the very limited amount I play, I'm sort of this. We Min Maxers tend toward spellcasters, and I havn't played a fighter in prob 10 years. The one time it was a prob was when I was DMing 4th and the Min Maxer made all the char's, Now that was a NIGHTMARE. Level appropriate foes died in 1/2 a round. YIKES. That is when I stopped being such a "seat of the pants DM". But I learned a lot and went up a few L as DM. An unfortunate circumstance that really really stretched me as a DM. I'm truely glad for the lessons learned Unlike mao , I have a big problem with the min-maxers. But not because they can break the rules, that is not possible the rules are well designed in OD&D and there is nothing the players can do to mess that up. My problem is that min-maxers are self-centered, selfish, whiny, cowardly jerks that are not team players. They are not good or excellent role-players, they are terrible roll-players, the worst of the worst. They never think of the team, the group, but only of themselves. I thankfully have never had one of these IMC, but I have seen them in other places. I was baffled that anyone was willing to play with them. Let's be clear here, I could start all of the players with all 18's across the board and give everyone three magic items to start and here is what would not happen. Level appropriate foes would not die in 1/2 round. As for the other, all fighting-men or all magic-users or all clerics and any combination, I don't care play anything you want, it will not make a difference, if you want to survive you have to work as a team, if someone is only out for themselves then likely all will die. Having players max out the character is not the problem, it is the symptom, it is the character of the player that is the problem. If you lack character, you are not fun to game with. mao , you may be an excellent role-player and a standup guy(and having not met you I assume that is the case), but the average min-maxer that I have seen is most definitely not either of these. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 21:20:28 GMT -5
Then mao said, One of the games I a have been running a little and working on a lot started me thinking on what I hate about shows like Grimm and X Files: The monster of the week. A world with hundreds(maybe thousands) of monsters does not make a lot of sense. True we have to deal with a weekly or so game, and we have a lot of encounters to fill up, but a limited monster game could be cool too. When I started to world build I limited myself to 10 types of PC killers, but most of which have ten or more racial or regional variants. One of the main ones in the setting is werewolf there are tons of movie types to draw from. Another is variants in Wight to include some that are Liche like. The Apex predator in my word is the chimera, I have tons of heads, bodies and magical types( this has replaced the dragon in the myths). Make sure that you fill all the niches that you will need when you start, you also might want to leave room for a cool future idea. My campaign world is huge, it is Jupiter sized. Currently my players are ten real world years (32 game years) into circumnavigating the globe, As they have traveled from continent to island(s) to continent the fauna and flora has constantly changed. I don't think you can have too many monsters or creatures in your campaign. Variety is the spice of life. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 21:22:23 GMT -5
mao said, MONSTERS SHOULD TRY AND RUN AWAY,WAY MORE THAN YOU ARE DOING IT NOW! (me too) Nah, way more than I do now, would be way too much. 
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 21:25:16 GMT -5
mao says Rule #3 Nobody watches, everybody at the table plays, no exceptions! I broke this rule EXACTLY one time since 1977 and sure enuf it was a problem. I let a guy sit in to see what the game was like, he started a loud side conversation and I went off on him. I lost a player and reminded myself how important it was. I even made the 60 year old mother of a 17 year old girl play when she wanted to check us out. She did pretty good for a civilian. Be firm with this one! I have never encountered a problem with this. If someone makes it into my home, they are very unlikely to be that rude.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 21:28:52 GMT -5
Pet Peeves Both are dice related. 1) STOP ROLLING THE DICE IN YOUR HAND!!!!!!!! I can't stand it when players shake and shake their dice in their hand! JUST ROLL THE darn DICE!!!!!!!! (If they are describing what they are doing in an RP way, that's FINE, but to shake and shake saying"C'mon Daddy needs a 20!" I just want to strangle them) 2) WORST OF ALL: ROLL THE DICE ON THE darn TABLE!!!!!!!!!!! Really, how hard is this? You are doing something a 4 year old can do right! It got so bad at one point, I made a house rule that dice off the table= lowest poss roll! DON"T ROLL THE DICE TOWARD YOURSELF!!!!! This is ASKING to throw them off the table! Number one I have no problem with since no one does that, my game moves too fast for that. Number two, I have never had a problem with that and everyone knows if it goes off the table you have to roll all the dice you are rolling again. So if you are rolling high with two d6's and the one on the table is a six and the other goes off the table you have to reroll both of them. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 21:35:25 GMT -5
Per Peeves two I'm only semi involved in character creation, usually the extent of my intervention is selecting "volunteers" to play the Cleric and the Wizard. The cleric is necessary because I love a combat heavy session (I've mentioned previously: It is my best trait as DM). I find Wiz characters near indispensable for the kind of game I run (for some reason I can't fathom, I'm not thief friendly, got nothing against them).But the area I can be most intrusive in is: Character Names! The players pick in this is very important to me. Silly names are right out! Usually overly complex, long or hard to pronounce will drive me into a frenzy. I've really softened on this over the years, My new player a couple of days ago broke just about all my rules except silly. I did what I did now and gave him a short nickname and enforced it. He is Brew now( it was part of his incomprehensible name). Only thing I go active on these days is silly. Really not sure why this is so important to me. It's not like I've had a ton of problems with this over the years. I guess everybody has their quirks and this is a big one of mine. My involvement in character creation is pretty much limited to glancing at the character sheet before it goes into play. I don't select "volunteers" to play clerics or magic-users, play all fighting-men or all magic-users or all clerics and any combination, I don't care play anything you want, it will not make a difference, if you want to survive you have to work as a team. If you don't have a mix, it just means the players have to figure it out and adjust their play to accommodate their choices. Character names, have at it as long as it is not vulgar, we don't have problem. But you are welcome to have your quirk, as you may have noticed I have some of my own. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 21:41:42 GMT -5
EPIC FAIL So after running Mysantia for so long ,I needed a break from fantasy . I started an epic supers game using Villains and Vigilantes. Everything you could have done wrong I did. The game was supposed to be about dimensional shifting aliens who had super super tech. For years the players were never given any solid clues about their foe. I dragged the game on and on, degenerating into a series of fight after fight. Attendance was bad and nobody cared about the plot. I never did anything with the hero's that didn't involve combat. Worst of all I made all the characters myself, without any player input. As th aliens shifted the dimensions around, the players often changed characters. How could I not have seen how bad this all was? To this day my game still suffers because of this atrocity. I suppose the lesson I learned was being an imperial DM is only good if the players buy into the premise. I look back in wonder at what I had done. Well you learned from it, my advice plots are vastly overrated, you don't need one. Create the setting, lay out a few good hooks, 30 to 40 or so and let the players go where they will. Your world will grow organically and plots will develop on their own due to the decisions that the players make or fail to make. Always remember the hooks that they don't follow, you get to bring those back as they hear about what happened as those developed out of sight to them. Nothing stops, just because the players aren't there, the world keeps turning and things keep happening everywhere, not just where the players are at. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 21:50:39 GMT -5
mao says, Cheating DM #1 Ok in all but the most complex of battles , I almost never give HP to monsters. I just sort of wing it. I've got three basic categories, "Orcs, Ogres, Boss" "Orcs" are your basic cannon fodder. 1-2 hits are a kill unless the players roll really bad, don't pay much attention to how much they do for the most part. "Ogres" are your Gnoll Chieftain's, your bugbears your minor boss etc. These usually I let die after 35-50 Hp mostly 3-6 hits or so. I am fairly careful to regulate kills on these types. "Bosses" have a huge range till they die, usually I'll wait till the party has used about 75-90% of their resources before it drops. Sometimes if the players have a great plan I'll let it die like a chump. Now there is one rule I use with this, if I am winging the encounter (like usual) I don't kill pcs. Never. PC death I reserve for Major encounters that are carefully planned out and can with bad play lead to a TPK. This should be reserved for the rarest occasion, when the stakes are very high. This being said my #1 ability I possess are my compelling combats, it's s much easier to do when the fight ends pretty much exactly when I want it to I am the KING of railroading DMs but remember I was able to sustain a 31 year long campaign this way. This way is prob for very advanced DMs but it is quite liberating. Carefully award kills and spread the wealth! I don't do this, one I can assign hit points to monster as fast as I an write and and two I don't regulate kills in any shape or form. Players and monsters are all equally subject to the possibility of dying at all times. I am the complete opposite, I hate and despise and detest RAILROADING, in all its forms. In my opinion, there is nothing more unfair to the players than to take away their choice. I don't care when or how the fight ends or even if it ever started to begin with. As the ref, I have no agenda for what takes place, the players have free will, they can fight or run or anything else they choose to do. What happens, happens! If they die, they die, if the win big, they win big.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 21:56:09 GMT -5
mao says, Cheating DM #2 Ok we've already established I play fast and loose with my monsters, so what about the dice? I view the dice as a guideline, not set in stone. I don't even often give my monsters a set to hit number. It's almost like I do "high/low", but not completely. I take into account AC, a bit.I've had a very few canny players realize this and always go with Con instead of Dex. They tried to share the wisdom but luckily for me, they were unable to impart this wisdom. I extend this to the players to some degree. Last night I played and the cleric was rolling terrible on his channels. He rolled particularly low on his last one(6 on three D6). So with my eternal motto of "What does it cost me?" I let him reroll(he got an 8 the second time). I will often do this with a player who has been consistently rolling low damage, again "what does it cost me?" The players will even say "What does it cost you?" in supplication, usually I'll give in. Monster saving throws are tricky with this, I am very inclined for monsters to "fail" rolls that involve damage. Saves that lead to minor penalties to hit and damage are also likely to fail. Don't let the dice get between you and a good game. I also don't do this. I play the monsters straight up, sauce for the players is sauce for the monsters. I don't cheat on behalf of monsters or players, straight up play. And yes I make real savings throws for the monsters. The dice never get between me and a good game. If the players know that you will play it straight, then it makes it easy for them to make decisions because they know you are consistent and will not gratuitously screw with them.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 22:03:26 GMT -5
mao says, Cheating DM 3 Ok so we've established my cheating ways. How do I justify player death? The short answer is mostly I can't. I haven't killed a PC in the longest time. There actually have been complaints. Came very close this week thou, critical hit on Stone Mage put him 1 hp from death. It's something I've grown so soft on. I almost always reserve PC death to poor playing and very special boss encounters (That I have completely stated out) The 21 yr old me would be MYSTIFIED by the games I run today. I am planning on bringing back the little thou. We'll all see if I pull the trigger on this. Player death is part of the game, there is no justification needed. In over 4000 game sessions I have had over 450 TPK's, one night we had eight TPK's, the bulk of the TPK's were during the first 1000 game sessions, over the last 1000 game sessions we have had two total. Experience is what reduces TPK's. PC death can happen anytime, it is not reserved for any special time.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 22:06:10 GMT -5
mao says, BUY THE BOOKS!!!!!!! DON"T MAKE ME GET ALL THE PLAYERS HANDBOOKS The players don't need books, EVER! I have the three little brown books as the ref and that is all we need. Well that and my imagination and the players imagination, paper, pencil and a few dice.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 22:21:43 GMT -5
mao says, Ok , I just don't understand the love for sandboxing. I never really read that much about it cause' I think the whole idea is silly. I know I might be old and set in my ways but for the last 5 years or so I've really grown as a DM. I've searched many topics on my art and really saw how I had stagnated, but SB no thanx! For one thing, I really don'r see how you can justify player death in one. I run super detailed rich complex worlds and the idea of letting the PCs romp to their hearts content just doesn't appeal to me. Sounds like a great way to end up dead. Railroading is a bad term, no doubt concocted by said sandboxers. With railroading you can set clear goals and run epic universe saving stories that I have come to love so much. Selected areas can be run sandboxy, for short periods of time. I can easily see a sandboxy start to a game set in a limited geographical area , alowing the players to learn about where they will be adventuring before their epic journey begins I will wear my conductors hat proudly for the rest of my DMing career, leading the PCs on epic endevours. Here is where we really part ways. I love sandbox play and it is not silly in the least, if you know what a sandbox is, I find that most people who rant about sandboxes have no idea what a real sandbox is. Character death does not have to be justified, the world is dangerous and if you don't make good decisions it will happen, if you make good decisions it may happen. Just like in the real world. First of all a sandbox is a super detailed rich complex world anywhere the players travel too that is what they find a world full of wonder to interact with and they are free to romp around in it to their hearts content. The ref does not set goals or run epic universe saving stories, if you want to do that then write a novel. The players set their own goals, the ref does not do that for them, it is there choice what they do, I would not play in a game where my character was subject to a ref's script for my life. The entire game world is a sandbox, that is the Arneson model, you know the guy that invented this game and ran the first game world called Blackmoor. If the players go on an epic quest, it should be because they chose the quest and they want to pursue it. As I noted right now my players are in the 32nd year of circumnavigating a very large world because they wanted to not because I made them do it. At this point they have seen more of the world than any other people have ever dreamed even existed. If they make it back alive it will completely change the world that they live in. I never were a conductors hat, of which I am quite happy, my players are smart people and they conduct their own affairs in their own way. I don't need to force the PCs onto a path for the sake of my pre-written script, I let them create their own path and their own epic endeavors, I just provide a place for it to happen.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jan 16, 2018 22:35:26 GMT -5
mao says, A lot of what I prep for is to have plenty of material for the game at hand,plus the PCs (even at 1L) are always dealing w/ epic crisis'. You can't run epics w sandboxes. When I first started DMing (40 years ago) I ran my Mysantia game as a gritty "fight for a bowl of rice" but I quickly began to do the epics. The great thing about D&D is thee is no right way, as long as everyone is having fun. This is not true, you can run an epic with a sandbox, IF YOU LET THE PLAYERS CHOOSE! If the players choose something epic, then you have it and if they want to do something else it still might become epic. The part that you don't do in a sandbox is force decisions down the players throats for them, you know the worst part of a RAILROAD, where the players choices and decisions don't matter, where they read their lines off the script the GM wrote.
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Post by mao on Jan 17, 2018 5:55:49 GMT -5
Your disagreements with my points are smothered in respect, I will join you in this and merely say in response: Dif strokes for dif folks and note I used the word "rant for my thread. Good gaming to you!
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The Min Maxing PLayer>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I don't have a prob with these guys. The way I look at it, is if he can break the rules, the rules are bad not the player.
