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Post by mormonyoyoman on Dec 5, 2017 17:18:51 GMT -5
I knew and know GMs who punished PCs when their players had them act on knowledge they couldn't have known. Steve Chanault at TLG told me of his excellent habit of (deleted) players who quoted rules or brought rulebooks to the table. I would use Sanity Checks for any PC who knew out of character rules and one of my players' parties hanged a PC who referenced something called Hits to Kill and seemed to think they were all fictional.
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Post by Admin Pete on Dec 5, 2017 22:27:25 GMT -5
As a ref I have never been the least bit concerned about "meta-knowledge". For a number of different reasons I have never cared about players making every attempt to play their characters using every bit of knowledge and creativity and especially out of the box thinking.
A few reasons, but not an exhaustive list:
1. Forcing players to play stupid and pretend they don't know things is never IMO fun for the players - at least it wouldn't be fun for me.
2. Because I am not concerned about "meta-knowledge" I never once had a rules lawyer problem back in the day. Of course aside from the two of us that reffed, not of the other players ever showed any interest in the rule book - I encourage players to have that attitude. It is rather hard to quote rules, when you have no need to know what they are. Only the ref needs to know the rules and he will tell the players what they need to know and much they learn as they go, which is the most realistic part of the game - you learn by doing.
3. Because I treat the rules as guidelines and routinely deviate from them in many ways, all knowledge my players have must be taken by the players with a grain of salt - does that ogre have 12 HP or 80 HP - is he young or very robust, fully mature, battle hardened, and definitely not average. Or is that troll 2 HD or 6HD+3 or 12 HD or a 10,000 year old 25 HD monster.
4. My players learn to not worry about the rules, just play your character and have fun, don't focus on what you think you know, but pay attention to what I tell you, draw clues from the things I say, don't miss the information in the description or you will fight what you shouldn't, run when you could have won and fail to negotiate when there was advantage to be gained or a successful bluff that could have been made.
5. As a ref I feel very strongly that punishing players for "meta-knowledge" would be cheating and abusing my power in my game. Especially since the "meta-knowledge" may be wrong and it often is wrong if they have not paid attention. I try to be very consistent and that consistency is that my game is much more dynamic than static numbers in tables and a one size fits all monster description is only an average not something hard and fast. Monsters are individuals the same as characters are.
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Post by mao on Dec 6, 2017 9:42:40 GMT -5
Since the vast majority of my players are adults, the idea of punishing them is ludicrous. I have created the idea of a kharmic line That says basically "what you know your char knows" I explain this in game as :What the hell did the PC do while he was being trained for YEARS under higher L chars!?!
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Post by captaincrumbcake on Dec 8, 2017 14:41:54 GMT -5
M&M, p.4 That kind of meta-explains it.  |
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Post by Von on Dec 14, 2017 5:00:15 GMT -5
1. Forcing players to play stupid and pretend they don't know things is never IMO fun for the players - at least it wouldn't be fun for me. This is the bottom line for me too. Whatever other arguments can be mustered pale beside the question of whether or not one's players are enjoying themselves. Discovering a world is fun the first time; by the fourth it's generally lost its charm. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Dec 14, 2017 10:29:48 GMT -5
1. Forcing players to play stupid and pretend they don't know things is never IMO fun for the players - at least it wouldn't be fun for me. This is the bottom line for me too. Whatever other arguments can be mustered pale beside the question of whether or not one's players are enjoying themselves. Discovering a world is fun the first time; by the fourth it's generally lost its charm. That is one reason I have many ways to keep new stuff on the table, when players go through a portable to another world or travel to another continent where the flora and fauna are different there are new things to discover that meta knowledge doesn't cover. I use many unique magic items and mages create unique one of a kind monsters. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Dec 15, 2017 3:00:36 GMT -5
Perhaps I used charged terms with "punish" and "meta-knowledge." What I intended to reference was the player who will act on knowledge their character couldn't possibly have, whether it's knowledge of a creature they've never seen nor heard about or "he killed my character so my next totally-a-stranger character is gonna kill him!" As for "punish," I use the term humorously (I think) became it sounds funnier than "try to teach them it's not personal and there's no 'losing' in this game."
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Post by ripx187 on Dec 29, 2017 19:49:56 GMT -5
Exalt mormonyoyomanThis is a great thread! I reward liars. If someone goes there I simply ask them how they know such information. If they can tell me, and it isn't a huge violation of the rules or an insult on the world, I except it and enjoy the yarn with everybody else. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Dec 29, 2017 20:42:22 GMT -5
Now that makes sense, and I'm ashamed to say that, though we all do it without meaning to, I never realized it consciously.
The older I get, the dumber I get.
Your express permission for a player to impart "real life" information to their characters invites players to actively engage in creating the world and the adventure. Your insistence that they address verisimilitude keeps the game honest, "real," and a mutual investment.
Please remind me on Tuesday, when I can use my laptop again, to send an exalt your way, for finally clearing my head and heart about my conflict of interests when gamesmastering.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Jan 1, 2018 18:23:25 GMT -5
Ha! Sneaked into the Forbidden Computer Room and exhalted ol' Rip after all!
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Feb 7, 2018 2:02:55 GMT -5
As a GM I do not punish - I warn about it & expect they respect me & the other players.
I've been penalized 500 xp for merely looking something up even though I wasn't going to use it in game as it didn't apply to me in game; it was a stupid mistake but getting hit with 500 XP when I'd never use the info was harsh. My GM didn't care & I swallowed the XP hit. But I did get irked when other players got a free pass for meta-gaming things to mess with my character; I left the game shortly after. You don't let other players mess with other players & make them miserable, not cool.
That all said since I'll be running B/X or OD&D based games from now on with the occasion Rolemaster Express or Blood & Treasure 1e or OSRIC games - so it'll not be an issue; as my monsters will not be by the book - take my house rules by my post in the ODD monsters sub-forum for dragons.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Nov 16, 2018 13:57:10 GMT -5
I need to clarify what I consider meta-gaming - it is one thing to have a player think out of the box and utilize their own knowledge of the real world to inform how their character deals with a situation & those players who use info from a role-playing situation their character should have zero knowledge about.
Example 1: A player using knowledge of the world that may or may not be generally known but the player does, I'd chock that up to that character having heard the info while on his or her travels. That said a player should not be opening monster manuals or a GM's guide to look up info to benefit them. I'd warn them not to and if they continued the behavior I'd kick them from the group.
Example 2: A player uses knowledge of a in game situation in which their character was not privy to but uses it to cause another player problems in game. I'd warn them twice & kick them on the third infraction.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 8:12:20 GMT -5
It plays into the character's backstory like this - as a youth, you were always fascinated by tales of adventure, hanging out in tap rooms listening to the tales that adventurers would tell, listening to bard songs and ballads, hearing knights tell of their quests of daring do ... this was your education, of sorts, and the knowledge the player has from years of gaming, this translates to what separates his character from common folk.
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Post by Harry Wolf on Nov 27, 2018 14:54:27 GMT -5
It plays into the character's backstory like this - as a youth, you were always fascinated by tales of adventure, hanging out in tap rooms listening to the tales that adventurers would tell, listening to bard songs and ballads, hearing knights tell of their quests of daring do ... this was your education, of sorts, and the knowledge the player has from years of gaming, this translates to what separates his character from common folk. I always thought this was a default assumption about PC's and all the people who assume PC's are totally ignorant of the world they live in are not thinking about their own broad base of knowledge accumulated just by living. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2018 16:26:04 GMT -5
I run two D&D games at a FLGS, and you'd think this would have occured to even veteran players, but I had to just reinforce the concept last Monday night ...
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Post by mao on Nov 29, 2018 16:51:57 GMT -5
It plays into the character's backstory like this - as a youth, you were always fascinated by tales of adventure, hanging out in tap rooms listening to the tales that adventurers would tell, listening to bard songs and ballads, hearing knights tell of their quests of daring do ... this was your education, of sorts, and the knowledge the player has from years of gaming, this translates to what separates his character from common folk. Just This |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 29, 2018 17:53:42 GMT -5
It plays into the character's backstory like this - as a youth, you were always fascinated by tales of adventure, hanging out in tap rooms listening to the tales that adventurers would tell, listening to bard songs and ballads, hearing knights tell of their quests of daring do ... this was your education, of sorts, and the knowledge the player has from years of gaming, this translates to what separates his character from common folk. I always thought this was a default assumption about PC's and all the people who assume PC's are totally ignorant of the world they live in are not thinking about their own broad base of knowledge accumulated just by living. I have been arguing this for years. The PC's grew up in a community where oral transmission of folklore and news and everything is told and re-told and the memory is used extensively. My dad grew up in that culture and he knew literaly hundreds if not thousands of stories and you could sit for hours at a time and listen. Had I grown up in that farming with horses times I would know them to, but here in todays world I rarely get to tell the few that I do remember 40+ years after hearing them and not getting to tell them on a regular basis. People in the world that I game in would remember almost everything they ever heard, anyone who grows up in a pre-media world did and does. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Nov 29, 2018 22:47:47 GMT -5
Again, I have nothing against PCs having as much knowledge as the characters would have. My crankiness is reserved for the Bob Herzogs who knows who said & did what while Bob's character was on the other side of the world with no crystal ball.
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elanfanboy
Wanderer
A newbie to the forum, just here for discussion.
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Post by elanfanboy on Dec 20, 2018 9:48:55 GMT -5
Again, I have nothing against PCs having as much knowledge as the characters would have. My crankiness is reserved for the Bob Herzogs who knows who said & did what while Bob's character was on the other side of the world with no crystal ball. Perhaps a little birdy told them.  |
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Post by ripx187 on Dec 20, 2018 17:09:26 GMT -5
News travels slow in the world, unless its a secret, than everybody knows.
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Post by True Black Raven on May 18, 2019 20:15:50 GMT -5
I knew and know GMs who punished PCs when their players had them act on knowledge they couldn't have known. Steve Chanault at TLG told me of his excellent habit of (deleted) players who quoted rules or brought rulebooks to the table. I would use Sanity Checks for any PC who knew out of character rules and one of my players' parties hanged a PC who referenced something called Hits to Kill and seemed to think they were all fictional. How did I miss this thread, great stuff everyone, lots of fun ideas here. I think I will try a lot of them starting with the Sanity Checks! |
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Post by mao on Jun 1, 2019 9:33:10 GMT -5
I knew and know GMs who punished PCs when their players had them act on knowledge they couldn't have known. Steve Chanault at TLG told me of his excellent habit of (deleted) players who quoted rules or brought rulebooks to the table. I would use Sanity Checks for any PC who knew out of character rules and one of my players' parties hanged a PC who referenced something called Hits to Kill and seemed to think they were all fictional. How did I miss this thread, great stuff everyone, lots of fun ideas here. I think I will try a lot of them starting with the Sanity Checks! More Sanity Checks! |
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Post by solfe on Jun 26, 2021 23:45:31 GMT -5
I just joined the board and just found this thread.
I have this "thing" in my game where I note all of the character's charisma scores and if someone goes all meta on me, I make the player with the character with the lowest charisma to describe what the party does even if they have already picked a leader and a caller. I give him notes. Some of my players have experienced this and think it's really funny for the newbies.
Mr. Charisma: I bet the dragon is asleep.
Me as DM: It is!
Mr. Charisma: We'll kick in the door and kill it with arrows.
Me as DM: Good. You have surprise. Make your attack rolls.
Other players: Wait! What?
Mr Charisma: The dragon probably thought of this and hired some orcs to guard the lair. And an ogre.
Me as DM: You're right! There are actually 12 orcs and 3 ogres rushing into the room.
The other players argue while being forced to roll attack dice. For some strange reason, they always have initiative and do lots of damage from covered locations. Everything seems to be slanted to the player's benefit.
Me as DM: You have defeated the orcs and ogres, here is your experience points.
Mr. Charisma, still reading from the note: Oh, but the dragon fled to the next room. I bet he is casting a spell to turn into a giant snake!
Other players: Why the Wut? A why would a dragon turn into a giant snake?
Me as DM: You hear the swoosh of scales on rock and a titanic hissing noise. Roll for surprise!
Mr. Charisma: Oh, this doesn't look good.
Me as DM: Right! The snake swallows the paladin whole!
Paladin's player: I don't want to be eaten by a snake!
Mr. Charisma: Oh, yeah. That's bad. We can't do that...
Me as DM: Ok, everyone argues against kicking in the dragon's door. So, what is the real plan?
Oddly enough, one of my kids called me out on this, saying I was copying 'Mater Tall Tales from the Cars series. Since I've been doing this for decades, I complain about that comparison.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 27, 2021 0:45:41 GMT -5
I just joined the board and just found this thread. I have this "thing" in my game where I note all of the character's charisma scores and if someone goes all meta on me, I make the player with the character with the lowest charisma to describe what the party does even if they have already picked a leader and a caller. I give him notes. Some of my players have experienced this and think it's really funny for the newbies. Mr. Charisma: I bet the dragon is asleep. Me as DM: It is! Mr. Charisma: We'll kick in the door and kill it with arrows. Me as DM: Good. You have surprise. Make your attack rolls. Other players: Wait! What? Mr Charisma: The dragon probably thought of this and hired some orcs to guard the lair. And an ogre. Me as DM: You're right! There are actually 12 orcs and 3 ogres rushing into the room. The other players argue while being forced to roll attack dice. For some strange reason, they always have initiative and do lots of damage from covered locations. Everything seems to be slanted to the player's benefit. Me as DM: You have defeated the orcs and ogres, here is your experience points. Mr. Charisma, still reading from the note: Oh, but the dragon fled to the next room. I bet he is casting a spell to turn into a giant snake! Other players: Why the Wut? A why would a dragon turn into a giant snake? Me as DM: You hear the swoosh of scales on rock and a titanic hissing noise. Roll for surprise! Mr. Charisma: Oh, this doesn't look good. Me as DM: Right! The snake swallows the paladin whole! Paladin's player: I don't want to be eaten by a snake! Mr. Charisma: Oh, yeah. That's bad. We can't do that... Me as DM: Ok, everyone argues against kicking in the dragon's door. So, what is the real plan? Oddly enough, one of my kids called me out on this, saying I was copying 'Mater Tall Tales from the Cars series. Since I've been doing this for decades, I complain about that comparison. That is awesome! Did you defend yourself saying they were copying you? |
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Post by solfe on Jun 27, 2021 9:59:29 GMT -5
Sometimes, but for the most part, I use it for what it does. It's basically a combat simulation where there are no consequences. The players gain insight into mechanics and my current line of thinking about the encounter, which is usually what all the meta talk is about anyway.
Most people realize that it's a chance to experience combat with no consequences, but I haven't had any one catch on that I just gave them a chance to explore the room for free. If there is some sort of unique mechanic going on or some valued tactical information, they experience it in the "day dream" cycle and can use that knowledge again when things are "for real". I won't let the party explore past that one room, but usually that is enough to help them.
90% of the time, I use this tactic to prevent TPK. I find people get more "meta-game" when they think the scenario should be survivable, but in their specific case they need to regroup and heal before taking on the challenge. They want some sort of easy win condition, which doesn't exist. I don't go out of my way to kill off characters, that's in their hands but I won't let them kill themselves for silly reasons.
I've had meta discussions turn into great gaming. In one of them, I had a party of thieves searching for traps even when there weren't any. To spice things up, I had someone discover a trap on a whim. Then another character discovered a second trap which had the exact same description as the first because I was lazy... They got it in their head that there was an assassin after them. So I created that assassin and the campaign swerved into a new basic idea. It was great.
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Post by mao on Jul 19, 2021 4:05:50 GMT -5
Since the vast majority of my players are adults, the idea of punishing them is ludicrous. I have created the idea of a kharmic line That says basically "what you know your char knows" I explain this in game as :What the Wut did the PC do while he was being trained for YEARS under higher L chars!?! I must not of wanted to type my real answer, this is only about a 1/3 of how I handle it. The Kharmic line is actually a 4th single dimensional being That is eternal and exists at all times and places. It's job in the universe is to protect the Vivvar, or Life Plane. To be more specific it is the 4th dimensional antibodies of the Vivvar. The players not only have access to their own memories but they also can call upon the past memories of GAKL(The Greater Adventuring Kharmic Line).There is also SAGL, The Sage Kharmic Line, it exists to provide additional info to GAKL. I had an NPC that was actually aware of this, was SAKL and was very bitter about his lot in life. Not sure if this is understandable as it is an extremely difficult to explain concept.There are other befits to being GAKL, if you are separated from other GAKL members you will find each other easily and some magic items are recurring. |
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Post by hengest on Jul 19, 2021 19:32:22 GMT -5
As a ref I have never been the least bit concerned about "meta-knowledge". For a number of different reasons I have never cared about players making every attempt to play their characters using every bit of knowledge and creativity and especially out of the box thinking. A few reasons, but not an exhaustive list: 1. Forcing players to play stupid and pretend they don't know things is never IMO fun for the players - at least it wouldn't be fun for me. 2. Because I am not concerned about "meta-knowledge" I never once had a rules lawyer problem back in the day. Of course aside from the two of us that reffed, not of the other players ever showed any interest in the rule book - I encourage players to have that attitude. It is rather hard to quote rules, when you have no need to know what they are. Only the ref needs to know the rules and he will tell the players what they need to know and much they learn as they go, which is the most realistic part of the game - you learn by doing. 3. Because I treat the rules as guidelines and routinely deviate from them in many ways, all knowledge my players have must be taken by the players with a grain of salt - does that ogre have 12 HP or 80 HP - is he young or very robust, fully mature, battle hardened, and definitely not average. Or is that troll 2 HD or 6HD+3 or 12 HD or a 10,000 year old 25 HD monster. 4. My players learn to not worry about the rules, just play your character and have fun, don't focus on what you think you know, but pay attention to what I tell you, draw clues from the things I say, don't miss the information in the description or you will fight what you shouldn't, run when you could have won and fail to negotiate when there was advantage to be gained or a successful bluff that could have been made. 5. As a ref I feel very strongly that punishing players for "meta-knowledge" would be cheating and abusing my power in my game. Especially since the "meta-knowledge" may be wrong and it often is wrong if they have not paid attention. I try to be very consistent and that consistency is that my game is much more dynamic than static numbers in tables and a one size fits all monster description is only an average not something hard and fast. Monsters are individuals the same as characters are. I never worried much about this and don't have a group now, so maybe it doesn't matter, but I am very much in agreement with what Admin said several years ago here. 1) Agree that forcing players to play stupid is pointless. Plus I have no interest in adjudicating or making rulings about whether a PC is allowed to know this or that thing. The players control the PCs (apart from magical control or some such), end of sentence. 2) If I ever get anything going it will be rules-light and no rules required for players, so this applies, I think. 3 to 5) No particular comment but I dig this kind of thinking. I would so love to play as a player when I had no idea what the rules were. Just roll when I'm told to roll and otherwise say what I want to do. I would just love that. I have a few times had the experience where I felt that the entire world was just built as a kind of skin for a ruleset and I do not enjoy that at all. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 23, 2021 18:14:15 GMT -5
Since the vast majority of my players are adults, the idea of punishing them is ludicrous. I have created the idea of a kharmic line That says basically "what you know your char knows" I explain this in game as :What the Wut did the PC do while he was being trained for YEARS under higher L chars!?! I must not of wanted to type my real answer, this is only about a 1/3 of how I handle it. The Kharmic line is actually a 4th single dimensional being That is eternal and exists at all times and places. It's job in the universe is to protect the Vivvar, or Life Plane. To be more specific it is the 4th dimensional antibodies of the Vivvar. The players not only have access to their own memories but they also can call upon the past memories of GAKL(The Greater Adventuring Kharmic Line).There is also SAGL, The Sage Kharmic Line, it exists to provide additional info to GAKL. I had an NPC that was actually aware of this, was SAKL and was very bitter about his lot in life. Not sure if this is understandable as it is an extremely difficult to explain concept.There are other befits to being GAKL, if you are separated from other GAKL members you will find each other easily and some magic items are recurring. What is SAKL you did not define that one? |
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Post by mao on Jul 23, 2021 23:36:31 GMT -5
Sage Kharmic Line so SKL not SaKL
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