Braunstein (and Barons of Same)

[Deleted]

I do not have an account over on ODD74, which is where an ongoing discussion is taking place (request into "Marv 'Vinn Arr Vin' Breig" over on the Trollbrige since registration at ODD74 is closed). So, I'm posting this here. I've read Chirine be Kal (sp?) posts tagged "Braunstein" and they quite helpful. I've also read "Barons of Braunstein" and thought it was a pretty good attempt at what I saw in his posts and other discussions I've seen online. If Chirine replies, I'll post the response here (with his permission).

---

First of all, thank you for reading my e-mail. I realize you have many demands upon your time and acknowledge, right up front, you're free to answer these questions or not. Take all the time you need. Also, please free to post your reply on your Workbench 'blog instead, if you find the answer one you wish to share.

Onward!

I've read your posts about Wesely's Braunstein. I've also spoken or read the thoughts of others who've played in a Braunstein game either run by Wesely or someone who played in Wesely's games. I think I have a handle on the basic idea, which I'd like to run by you for an accuracy check.

1) The referee creates a scenario, giving each player a goal or goals.

1.1) These will include a larger goal shared by several players
1.2) But not all the players, a point raised by your Workbench posts. Was this always the case, or was there sometimes a universal goal?
1.3) Individual players will also have a smaller goal or goals unique to them.
1.4) Or was this minor goal also sometimes shared?

2) The created scenario took place upon a table top setting, involving miniatures and dressed with appropriate terrain and structures.

3) Though gameplay was largely role--playing, miniatures wargaming rules figured quite prominently with regard to movement and squad-level combat.

4) The referee resolves the vaguely 10 minutes turns (and 1 minute combat rounds) simultaneously.

5) The game ends when a set time limit is reached or victory conditions are achieved.

6) Games usually involved programmed NPC events such as riots, strikes, etc.

Question: is this reasonably accurate?

Question: it's been said by both you and Michael Mornard the "Barons of Braunstein" book published by Olde House Rules is "not even close" to a real Braunstein. While I see the differences, I'm confused as to how it isn't even close. I'd love to hear your thoughts about any parallels or missteps between the two.

Thank you for your time, and I'll certainly understand if this is all just a bit too much to cover. Have a great day fellow gamer.

-Piper

[mormonyoyoman]

I feel like this thread started in the middle and will work its way backwards to the start even while running to its possible conclusion? Was this meant to be a personal email to someone, but ended up in the public forum?

[Deleted]

I have received a reply from Jeff (Chirine ba Kal) and have asked his permission to quote that reply e-mail.

Basically? He stated I'm accurate in my assessment of how to run a proper Braunstein. If I do not receive permission to quote him verbatim I will summarize his reply.

I thought it best if you heard his response in his words.

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2017 22:29:28 GMT -5 mormonyoyoman said:

I feel like this thread started in the middle and will work its way backwards to the start even while running to its possible conclusion? Was this meant to be a personal email to someone, but ended up in the public forum?

Basically, there has been a lot of dialogue over on ODD74 (and elsewhere) regarding how to run a proper Braunstein game. This largely came about with the publishing of Barons of Braunstein by Olde House Rules. Jeff (Chirine) and Michael (Gronan of Simmerya) have both pooh-poohed the publication of the rules as being anything close to how Dave Wesely ran those proto-RPG game sessions.

Chirine has largely quit forums, a viewpoint with which I deeply sympathize, but has stated he's willing to answer genuine inquries as to Tekumel, Braunstein, and a variety of topics of interest to "old school" gamers. The posts I've referred to in my quoted e-mail are from his 'blog Chirine's Workbench

Normally, I would have posted the e-mail transcription to this thread over on ODD74 but, as of this writing, registration there is closed and I've been unable to port my Proboards account over there. So, I posted here.

Does this answer your question? If not, please let me know.

[mormonyoyoman]

I think it answers my questions. Let me see if I have this correct.. Your first post is a response to a thread on another (OD&D) board, though I can't tell whether there are quotes from someone else embedded in your post. My inability to determine who is saying what, may be because I'm using a tablet app for forum reading, that strips some HTML formatting.

[scottanderson]

Chirine kaBal (Jeff Perry) is one of the very original EPT players.  He also played in the first Braunsteins.  He plays all kinds of wargames and RPGs and loves to make minis and scenery. He has a blog here: chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/

"Braunsteins" which are one of the ancestors of RPGs. People over on ODD74 are talking about whether there are rules available for Braunstein. As it turns out, there are not. Whatever rules there are, are an artefact of Dave Wesley's imagination. Here's the thread from ODD74: odd74.proboards.com/thread/12582/braunstein-rules

Attachments:

[Deleted]

Sept 17, 2017 23:11:59 GMT -5 mormonyoyoman said:

I think it answers my questions. Let me see if I have this correct.. Your first post is a response to a thread on another (OD&D) board, though I can't tell whether there are quotes from someone else embedded in your post. My inability to determine who is saying what, may be because I'm using a tablet app for forum reading, that strips some HTML formatting.

You're almost there! There is a discussion about Braunstein games over on ODD74. I've been curious myself, and when I read (over there) of Chirine inviting curious gamers to read his 'blog posts on the subject and e-mail him with any questions. So, I took advantage. Chirine doesn't hang out there any longer, which is a real shame because like many of the Old Guard he is a valuable resource. His years of gaming with Phil Barker in Tekumel gives him a rare perspective. They were apparently lifelong friends, so a lot of unpublished lore for the Petal Throne lies in Chirine ba kal's (Jeff Berry) head.

I'm sorry for any confusion this post caused. I figured there was enough overlap between this board and ODD74 that I'd be able to get a discussion going about it.

To digress even a bit more, just in case you don't know, David Wesely's Braunstein games are credited by many to be the forerunner of RPGs. As I understand it Arneson played in one (or more) games, then went to run a fantasy Braunstein in a faraway land called Blackmoor ...

... and I suppose you know the rest!

[Deleted]

Sept 18, 2017 0:42:58 GMT -5 scottanderson said:

"Braunsteins" which are one of the ancestors of RPGs. People over on ODD74 are talking about whether there are rules available for Braunstein. As it turns out, there are not. Whatever rules there are, are an artefact of Dave Wesley's imagination. Here's the thread from ODD74: odd74.proboards.com/thread/12582/braunstein-rules

In the e-mail reply Chirine sent me to the original post (above), he mentioned Wesely is considering publishing a set of rules and has asked Chirine to work with him on the project.

[mormonyoyoman]

Thank you for your clarification. Yup, I'm familiar with the Braunstein campaign(s) and its/their influence in Arneson's creation of rolegaming itself. Though I don't recall, in all the years I knew OF Braunsteins, that Dave Arneson had taken on the role of referee for the key Wesley campaign.. Until I learned it here in this forum.

The facts in your initial post were unsurprising and I knew what you were writing about. But it was evident that you were replying to and addressing some unknown person. As with the surviving letters of Paul of Tarsus, I came in on the middle of the conversation. Somewhat like walking into the middle of a Hitchcock movie. Now I'm less befuddled.

Unless I forget.

[Deleted]

Sept 18, 2017 5:43:43 GMT -5 mormonyoyoman said:

Yup, I'm familiar with the Braunstein campaign(s) and its/their influence in Arneson's creation of rolegaming itself. 

I thought as much, but I hated to assume. 

Yes, it was a bit confusing the way I presented it, but I was so excited to hear from him that I thought I would share with everyone. Especially the part he related about an official book of rules that may be in the works.  

I'll try to be a little clearer in the future! 

[Deleted]

I have received permission to repost Chirine's e-mail reply to my questions. If you have an interest in running this type of game, I recommend checking out his 'blog, he has the tag "Braunstein" on them.

Sept 17, 2017 18:22:01 GMT -5 @piper said:

First of all, thank you for reading my e-mail. I realize you have many demands upon your time and acknowledge, right up front, you're free to answer these questions or not. Take all the time you need. Also, please free to post your reply on your Workbench 'blog instead, if you find the answer one you wish to share.

No problem! I love to be able to help people, and I'm happy to answer questions as best as I can.

I've read your posts about Wesely's Braunstein. I've also spoken or read the thoughts of others who've played in a Braunstein game either run by Wesely or someone who played in Wesely's games. I think I have a handle on the basic idea, which I'd like to run by you for an accuracy check.

Sure! The good major tends to run 'historical scenarios', and I tend to run 'F/SF' once in the same style.

1) The referee creates a scenario, giving each player a goal or goals.

1.1) These will include a larger goal shared by several players
1.2) But not all the players, a point raised by your Workbench posts. Was this always the case, or was there sometimes a universal goal?
1.3) Individual players will also have a smaller goal or goals unique to them.
1.4) Or was this minor goal also sometimes shared?

Generally, it makse for a better game if the players have both individual and shared goals, as it encourages them to make deals and allies; otherwise, it turns into more or less a straight fight between factions, and thus heads back into 'normal wargaming territory'. I like to have more role-playing, and it also seems to make for better games that way. I normally have some players sharing a mutual goal, and others aiming to thwart them. The goal is to make for an exciting game, I think.

2) The created scenario took place upon a table top setting, involving miniatures and dressed with appropriate terrain and structures.

I prefer to do it this way, because I love to build stuff. Dave has run this way, and sometimes not. It makes for a more impressive spectacle, and I find that it helps both the players and I keep track of the action.

3) Though gameplay was largely role--playing, miniatures wargaming rules figured quite prominently with regard to movement and squad-level combat.

Yes! The miniatures are more of a 'tactical display', and I keep the 'game rules' to an absolute minimum and as simple as possible. The goal is to run the game in as close to 'real time' as possible, as it's simply more fun and howlingly funny that way.

4) The referee resolves the vaguely 10 minutes turns (and 1 minute combat rounds) simultaneously.

Yes. The GM has to be fast and firm, and has to keep the game moving smartly along to keep the energy and pace up.

5) The game ends when a set time limit is reached or victory conditions are achieved.

Yes! I usually let the game run for no more then four hours, as that seems to be what the players like and can handle. The game usually reaches a point whree it's really obvious how it will end, and I usually call it at that point.

6) Games usually involved programmed NPC events such as riots, strikes, etc.

Yes. There's a lot of 'if-then statements' I use, like "If the players desecrate the temple, then the villagers go after them." Very easy to come up with, and really keeps people on their toes.

Question: is this reasonably accurate?

Question: it's been said by both you and Michael Mornard the "Barons of Braunstein" book published by Olde House Rules is "not even close" to a real Braunstein. While I see the differences, I'm confused as to how it isn't even close. I'd love to hear your thoughts about any parallels or missteps between the two.

It has nothing about how to actually run the Braunstein itself; it is a very nice set of historical medieval miniatures rules, but it was originally written without the authors actually knowing how the games Dave runs actually work. It has nothing about the wheeling and dealing in the hallways and dark cornrs that his games (and mine) have. I'd use it to adjducate situations - I have a copy - but the actual game running has to come from the GM and their skill. If anything, my series of blog essays is the closest thing we have on how to run the actual game - I'd love to have Dave write something up!!!

You can use any set of rules to run the action of the game; Braunsteins are more of a play style and game-running method then a set of rules. I've used "Chainmail", SF rules, WWII naval rules, and lots of others to run the action; everything else is my own, writing up the scenario and the goals for the players.

Dave has also suggested (with a lot of 'subtle' heavy-handed arm-twisting) that I collaborate with him and write a formal set of rules for the game; if you think that this would be useful, I'll follow up with him on this.

Thank you for your time, and I'll certainly understand if this is all just a bit too much to cover. Have a great day fellow gamer.

You're very welcome! Does any of this help? Feel free to ask more questions, too!!!

yours, chirine

[mormonyoyoman]

In the future? I hates time travel on accoun' of I das not unnerstans it.

[Deleted]

Sept 18, 2017 0:42:58 GMT -5 scottanderson said:

Chirine kaBal (Jeff Perry) is one of the very original EPT players.  He also played in the first Braunsteins.  He plays all kinds of wargames and RPGs and loves to make minis and scenery. He has a blog here: chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/

"Braunsteins" which are one of the ancestors of RPGs. People over on ODD74 are talking about whether there are rules available for Braunstein. As it turns out, there are not. Whatever rules there are, are an artefact of Dave Wesley's imagination. Here's the thread from ODD74: odd74.proboards.com/thread/12582/braunstein-rules

Some historical footnotes, if I may. I did not play in Dave's original Braunsteins; I learned from him, and he played in one of mine (The Great Mos Eisley Spaceport Raid, which had most of the original Blackmoor group as players) and we've been talking to each other for literally decades. I started playing out at Phil's in 1976, and was his archivist and publisher for quite a while.

[Crimhthan The Great]

Back to Braunstein, for a sec - there is an RPG out there that uses the name, actually. You can find it on DTRPG.

HOWEVER, the game only uses the name, and was - after a moment of controversy - endorsed by David Wesely: blackmoor.mystara.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8368

It might be worth a look, and I am not sure how the developers have worked with Wesely since, but - if you're looking for a "legit" source, there are apparently quite a few more authentic ones around than this one, as "Braunstein!" was not conceived as a "historically correct" adaptation, but simply as an oldschool-style game.

Olde House Rules changed the name to "Barons of Braunstein" after the aforementioned controversy.

I bought the game recently and it is fine (I have a use in mind for it in concert with OHR's game "The Maze of Memory"), but I agree that it seems a vastly different animal than Wesley's Braunstein games.

It is, and Dave would be the first to tell you so.

However, he's OK with them using the name, so good for them. Dave said when he contacted them their reaction was "We thought you were dead!"

In fact, he hands out copies of "Barons" at his Braunstein games as prizes.