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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 11, 2018 5:58:46 GMT -5
When I run my future OD&D campaigns I'll be snagging Delving Deeper's Thief for them. You might also want to check out Rob Conley's Mountebank, someone wrote about that recently somewhere on here and it sounded pretty cool to me. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Apr 11, 2018 13:19:35 GMT -5
When I run my future OD&D campaigns I'll be snagging Delving Deeper's Thief for them. You might also want to check out Rob Conley's Mountebank, someone wrote about that recently somewhere on here and it sounded pretty cool to me. Oh I will for sure Admin Pete, thanks for the suggestion. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 11, 2018 15:50:10 GMT -5
You might also want to check out Rob Conley's Mountebank, someone wrote about that recently somewhere on here and it sounded pretty cool to me. Oh I will for sure Admin Pete , thanks for the suggestion. You are welcome! |
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Post by True Black Raven on Apr 13, 2018 16:10:47 GMT -5
To roughly paraphrase robertsconley's Mountebank is this So I am going to mix (one of these days) that with the standard thief and a few others to get my "Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser" character class. The Mountebank get's me much of the way there. |
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 28, 2019 11:59:34 GMT -5
Admin wrote:
This exchange frames the design problem with the thief.
In defense of the class, proponents contrast the exceptional or 'fantastic' nature of thief abilities with those characteristic of 'normal' men. Often the abilities of normal men, or non-heroic figures, are either hand-waved by the referee or handled as part of the dungeon key or surprise die.
The game, as I have played it, has never required more than the d6 dungeon key. 'Sneaking' and 'hiding', be it in darkness or behind something, like the dungeon key, is a standard d6 - surprise check; Gygax makes this explicit in the AD&D PHB. 'Climbing' with equipment might require a die roll were the surface, slippery or sheer; if harnessed properly a failed die roll might only indicate the wall is not to be ascended.
I think many of us covet an image or idea of the thief, while conflating it with the mechanics of the published class. I often recall the guys on the covers of Thieves World, but they are simply normal men, bandits in Monsters & Treasure, with a fighting man henchman, or leader, perhaps a spell caster as an enforcer. Thief, as an expert hireling and/or racial subheading under 'men', has worked best. A player character could easily begin within one of these racial subgroups, like 'bandit', 'pirate', 'merchant', or for that manner, 'thief'.
The other abilities, picking pockets, picking locks, or reading maps and scrolls, could easily be added to a class as particular racial ability within their subgroup, or for an additional 10% experience point penalty for advancement, as was done by Gygax with some Greyhawk clerics in AD&D.
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on Mar 7, 2020 8:21:25 GMT -5
I know this hasn't been posted in for a month or three now, but it's still near the top of the page, so forgive this newbie's necro-posting, but I'd like to share my two cents on thievery and where I stand on the subject currently.
As you can see, I've chosen the screen name "AmpleFramework", based on my favorite line from the 3lbbs, in the Afterword. Essentially, in a nutshell, Gary was saying "Here's a fine starting point. An ample framework. Expanding should be fun and easy. Use your own ideas." (That's some extreme compression and paraphrasing but it's my main takeaway and suits my purposes.)
This framework encapsulates a rather focused and specific scope in the three original booklets, which are the basis for my campaign. Unlike Arneson's Blackmoor, which can fairly be called an expansive game in scope, covering everything from kingdom management to dungeon delving and everything in between, OD&D has a firm and narrow focus. You're basically fantasy Indiana Jones, searching ancient tombs for valuable artifacts for wealth, experience and fame. Therefore, the core three classes of D&D can be said to be variations on this theme, within the conceit of the implied D&D world, one where an antique and monster-haunted land is dotted with labyrinthine ruins of civilizations past.
And so, yes, you are stealthy. You disarm traps. You open locked doors. But this stealth is in the context of navigating the mythic underworld and not getting jumped on by Bugbears or Giant Spiders. But these aren't the types of traps or locked doors you'd find in some wealthy merchant's mansion, but rather ancient, rusted devices and 14 foot high granite doors held fast with glowing runes of magical power that have to be bypassed with a spell. Because of the simple and single-minded scope of the fantasy dungeon delve campaign, the three core classes can do all of these things, especially the Elf, Dwarf and Hobbit, even if those are taken only as hirelings.
For this reason, my OD&D campaign specifically does just fine without a committed Thief class. If I were running a more open world or Blackmoor style game, sure. You could make a strong argument for those mechanics having a place. I personally believe in different classes and slightly different rules for each individual campaign, and as time goes by I'm increasingly convinced these house rules ought to be custom made or modified by a referee for his or her specific group and campaign, and that they're never really finalized and are subject to change when they don't work. That's why, when I run my OD&D campaign, I don't even really call it that. The player's guides I hand out are titled things like "A Cleric's Guide to the Southlands" rather than mentioning D&D or some such. This is calculated to set the tone and expectations. If some player does "go off the rails" of the suggested genre and decide to rob a bank or some such, the referee should be familiar enough with the base mechanics to modify something pre-existing to handle this type of encounter, and should encourage the player to use creativity and act it out, only rolling the dice once the actions have been adequately laid down and the referee has time to mentally modify the target.
That's just the direction I'm headed in now, in March of 2020. I've had other ideas in the past, especially as I started with BECMI and actually played a Thief in the past, and enjoyed it. I might feel differently ten years from now or even next month depending on how things pan out, but for the past half year or so I've been doing things this way and it works for me personally, and that's my barometer, really. I can respect any given argument for or against the Thief as long as it's honest. Happy gaming!
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 7, 2020 18:25:18 GMT -5
ampleframework, great post and to let you know, this board has never had a problem with necroing a thread. I heartily agree with your post and it is very close to what I do. Bravo!
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on Mar 9, 2020 18:57:32 GMT -5
ampleframework , great post and to let you know, this board has never had a problem with necroing a thread. I heartily agree with your post and it is very close to what I do. Bravo! Thanks. I assumed as much, when it comes to your preferences and referee style. I will add one little caveat, even though it should be obvious. I was, of course, simplifying the scope of OD&D and what it can be quite a bit there. Clearly, with booklet 3 covering aerial combat, stronghold building, wilderness exploration etc. the game isn't JUST about the dungeon delve, but the dungeon delve is the beating heart of the original game IMO. It's the foundation of the wealth and the tools that are used in all the other aspects of the game. The cornerstone of the 3lbb economy, as it were. When players find a map to some new town, stronghold or geographical region, it's understood that there'll be a dungeon nearby somewhere so they can continue to get richer and more experienced. If I had to pick one major tonal shift that B/X and AD&D lost in the transition I'd say that the printed adventures gradually moved away from the concept that the dungeon is the center of the campaign and the thing players ought to be excited about and turned the dungeon into some temporary obstacle to be overcome instead. Visited once or twice and then forgotten about. That's a major genre shift IMO. In my campaign the dungeon is where you wanna be if you're an adventurer. Everyone knows that's where the good stuff is. And rumor has it, all the dungeons in the world connect at the deeper levels, and they descend deep into the bowels of the Earth... that's where the REALLY good stuff is. And the really bad stuff. And against those challenges, you're gonna want stalwart Fighters, faithful Clerics and learned Magic-Users. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 9, 2020 23:18:41 GMT -5
I love dungeons, especially mega-dungeons.
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ampleframework
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Searching for the portal to Blackmoor
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Post by ampleframework on Apr 25, 2020 18:34:41 GMT -5
I love the idea of the dungeon-as-campaign, which modern tabletop games seem to have shifted away from with the exception of the niche market that emulates 70's and 80's play. A small sandbox with several entrances to the Underworld that link up at various points is a sufficient setting for this type of game, I'd argue, and the mechanics were made to support that. Some sort of home base or central hub with friendly npcs and a place to sleep and stash one's loot, a place to post job openings for hirelings, buy or repair equipment, have curses removed or what have you, and a few juicy rumors and bulletin boards, and you're good to go. But the mythic underworld is always under your feet and many roads lead there.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 26, 2020 0:05:37 GMT -5
I love the idea of the dungeon-as-campaign, which modern tabletop games seem to have shifted away from with the exception of the niche market that emulates 70's and 80's play. A small sandbox with several entrances to the Underworld that link up at various points is a sufficient setting for this type of game, I'd argue, and the mechanics were made to support that. Some sort of home base or central hub with friendly npcs and a place to sleep and stash one's loot, a place to post job openings for hirelings, buy or repair equipment, have curses removed or what have you, and a few juicy rumors and bulletin boards, and you're good to go. But the mythic underworld is always under your feet and many roads lead there. The dungeon is what initially really grabbed Arnesons' players and it is what really grabbed Gygax as well. I think you are right that a lot of that has been lost. I also think part of it has been dull boring dungeons or complete death traps in some circles too. Running a mega-dungeon is a balancing act in a way. But I like all facets of the game. |
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on Apr 28, 2020 10:43:14 GMT -5
I love the idea of the dungeon-as-campaign, which modern tabletop games seem to have shifted away from with the exception of the niche market that emulates 70's and 80's play. A small sandbox with several entrances to the Underworld that link up at various points is a sufficient setting for this type of game, I'd argue, and the mechanics were made to support that. Some sort of home base or central hub with friendly npcs and a place to sleep and stash one's loot, a place to post job openings for hirelings, buy or repair equipment, have curses removed or what have you, and a few juicy rumors and bulletin boards, and you're good to go. But the mythic underworld is always under your feet and many roads lead there. The dungeon is what initially really grabbed Arnesons' players and it is what really grabbed Gygax as well. I think you are right that a lot of that has been lost. I also think part of it has been dull boring dungeons or complete death traps in some circles too. Running a mega-dungeon is a balancing act in a way. But I like all facets of the game. Yes, indeed. I personally have a long way to go with my own dungeons. I'll have good ideas but the execution sometimes leaves much to be desired. What I need to do more than anything is resist the temptation to fill every room with something. Empty dungeon rooms and corridors that don't lead anywhere were meant to be part of these scenarios and they were there for a variety of reasons that have been well explored in literature including blogs in recent years. There's also the whole mechanic of a true megadungeon campaign wherein non-magical treasure is the primary source of experience points, so if there's too much, they level up too fast and the inverse happens if there's not enough. That part is rough for me. I've never gotten it 100% right. I've gone from being entirely too generous in my early years to pulling back too much. Anyway, to bring this back around to the main topic of the Thief and not to go too far down a side corridor, I find that the three core 3lbb classes are perfectly balanced against one another for the megadungeon campaign in particular. I'd like to, one of these days, run some sessions for some of you guys, either at a convention or through an online medium of some sort. The main pitch of the thing is that in my campaign setting, Perdition, it's well known by sages and grizzled veterans that there are multiple pathways to the Underworld, with the notable entrances either guarded by mythical beasts or under the strongholds of the Lords and Ladies, of whom there are thirteen. The known entrances are more secure, being in known places, and logistically it may be easier to launch a campaign through one of these entrances, though you'd need to either defeat or draw out the guardians or appease them through service or tribute. That will be for you to figure out! And no thieves, of course. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 28, 2020 12:25:37 GMT -5
Just to let you know, we run play by post games here at the forum and they are at the bottom of the forum. I ran a pbp for a short time before my wife got really ill and I shut it down when she did. That was the first time I ever tried a pbp. Now 15 months after she passed, I am getting ready to reboot that game. Right now I am posting information, so check it out, you would be welcome to join. Once the forum gets busy again, I hope we have several games running. There is also Classic Traveller game running and it has been up for quite a while.
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ampleframework
Prospector
Searching for the portal to Blackmoor
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Post by ampleframework on Apr 28, 2020 14:05:04 GMT -5
I'll look into it but I probably won't personally join or start any campaigns for a pretty good while going forward because they're unlikely to fit my schedule. I'm going back to work this coming Monday and I only get a handful of hours free in the PM, and I usually devote those to my exercise routine (important considering my recovery from a major health issue) and spending time with someone special to me (equally important!).
But, "never say never" is the slogan. We shall see. I'm definitely interested in playing as well as refereeing. I'm more interested in one-shots at the moment because I likely won't be able to commit to anything long term that demands a lot of tracking. But, I'll look into it for sure.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 28, 2020 23:21:42 GMT -5
I'll look into it but I probably won't personally join or start any campaigns for a pretty good while going forward because they're unlikely to fit my schedule. I'm going back to work this coming Monday and I only get a handful of hours free in the PM, and I usually devote those to my exercise routine (important considering my recovery from a major health issue) and spending time with someone special to me (equally important!). But, "never say never" is the slogan. We shall see. I'm definitely interested in playing as well as refereeing. I'm more interested in one-shots at the moment because I likely won't be able to commit to anything long term that demands a lot of tracking. But, I'll look into it for sure. Have an Exalt for keeping your priorities straight. I am hoping things open back up so I can get a part time job around 20-25 hours per week would I think be good. |
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ampleframework
Prospector
Searching for the portal to Blackmoor
Posts: 72
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Post by ampleframework on Apr 29, 2020 10:04:45 GMT -5
Thank you, my friend, for the exalt. Yes, priorities getting messed up is what's ruined some of my campaigns in the past. I was in a pretty good online game of B/X D&D with some right good old chaps and gals a couple years ago, but I eventually had to flake out because I'd committed to sessions I shouldn't have. I was neglecting my health and my S.O. and that's no good. Stuff like that leads a guy or gal to get burnt out on the hobby for a while, associating it with personal failures or bad experiences, and nobody wants to grow to despise their hobbies! I wanna make sure from now on that when I play or referee it's not only with the right people (I'm confident anyone interested in joining these boards fits that criteria) but that it suits my schedule. But, I'll keep my eyes open, and I'll be sure to communicate my own plans for running games honestly and transparently.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 29, 2020 11:10:01 GMT -5
Thank you, my friend, for the exalt. Yes, priorities getting messed up is what's ruined some of my campaigns in the past. I was in a pretty good online game of B/X D&D with some right good old chaps and gals a couple years ago, but I eventually had to flake out because I'd committed to sessions I shouldn't have. I was neglecting my health and my S.O. and that's no good. Stuff like that leads a guy or gal to get burnt out on the hobby for a while, associating it with personal failures or bad experiences, and nobody wants to grow to despise their hobbies! I wanna make sure from now on that when I play or referee it's not only with the right people (I'm confident anyone interested in joining these boards fits that criteria) but that it suits my schedule. But, I'll keep my eyes open, and I'll be sure to communicate my own plans for running games honestly and transparently. Sounds good to me! |
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